Idea to fix controversy about healer dps.

[HoodRat]

However, it is fortunate that the heals-only playstyle doesn't hurt the group.

The folks on the tank forums like to claim playing drk is a detriment to the group because you're not playing pld or war if you're playing drk. Since people don't like to challenge that reasoning, I see no reason why we can't use it here.

[Connor]

I still believe that adding classic GCD buff spells like Bravery/Faith/Haste to healer role skills would go a long way to make the healer role more interesting, since you’d get a choice on whether to buff the party, heal, or dps. It gives more options without anyone having to give up their precious healer dps, since by increasing the party’s dps you’re essentially doing the same thing in a different way

[MoroMurasaki]

I still believe that adding classic GCD buff spells like Bravery/Faith/Haste to healer role skills would go a long way to make the healer role more interesting, since you’d get a choice on whether to buff the party, heal, or dps. It gives more options without anyone having to give up their precious healer dps, since by increasing the party’s dps you’re essentially doing the same thing in a different way

If all you're talking about is the addition of these abilities with no ability or potency changes to the rest of each healer's toolkit then I'm certainly on that boat with you. I think it might create some salty dps who aren't getting buffed but that's fine with me.


My issue would be with the idea if replacing the current healer dps with abilities likely this. When you're grouped with strong dps it would be fine but if you had weaker players you would be left with no option to expedite things yourself. Buffing an Ice Mage into the 2k range is not as effective as spiking over 10k myself on trash in a dungeon. I've both seen my friends experience and been a part of myself too many instances where the top dps were healers and tanks.

At least with the current system we have the option to carry the brunt of the damage ourselves if we have to, even if some people are too stubborn/selfish to do it.

But guess what? There also isn't much reward for adding the DPS other than a self pat on the back and maybe a few comms. Making healing more interesting for yourself and your mates by weaving in offensive skills between heals (or for others: weaving in heals between offensive skills) is a playstyle.

It is unfortunate that one playstyle benefits the entire group, while the other only benefits the player. However, it is fortunate that the heals-only playstyle doesn't hurt the group. So you honestly have to choose your battles, and luckily most of the battling happens here on the forums and not when peeps are actually playing and working towards a clear. I can say that when I tank, the only thing I care about the healer doing is keeping my butt alive. The regens, shields, ogcd heals, and timely cures are what I notice.

How does a healing-only playstyle benefit the player? I don't see any benefit to it. There are certainly times when you have to pump out some HPS but if you're only healing you're only prolonging the encounter you're in.

In terms of not giving much of a reward that depends on context.

In EX primals and Savage (anything with an enrage really) your benefit is a quicker clear and not dying to enrage.

In content without an enrage you get a quicker clear.

I will acquiesce that there are situations in which your dps as a healer can feel more like a drop in the bucket. There is a BLM in my FC who is absolutely amazing and the few times I've done dungeons with him I have certainly felt like my dps doesn't matter as much. It becomes a question of competence. Outside of AoE burst any tank or DPS playing at a competent level will utterly destroy my dps numbers on WHM. Even though I feel like I do upper-end dungeon dps on WHM I just don't have the toolkit for single-target or sustained AoE like they do. In these parties even when I'm doing my best I am usually no more than 12-15% of the party dps.

How about when you are the only competent person in your instance, though? Dps not doing anything resembling a proper rotation, tank perpetually in tank stance generating unecessary aggro... these are the times when I end a dungeon at 30% or more of the group dps. When you consider how slow these runs are despite my dps (20-25 mins with no wipes) tacking on another 30% has you doing 40 mins in Kugane Castle.

Why is that not seen as a detriment?

At both the highest and lowest ends of content healer dps is literally nothing but beneficial and costs the party (and healer) nothing to contribute. The potential gain over time can be huge and there is simply no logical reason to deny your party this aid. To say it isn't detrimental to play a heal-only healer is like saying it isn't detrimental to not do your homework in school - you probably aren't going to fail because of it but it can only help you grow, learn and perform better.

[Makeda]

Design should get less ambiguous over healer DPS.

Either make it more of a factor, or less of one.

I'd say either create something like an attack spell that does healing to allies within 5yds of the target...

Or put a cooldown on healing spells after a damage spell is used - like 10seconds...

In other words - highly encourage healers to DPS, or strongly discourage it.

- Perhaps one strategy for one healer job and another for another job, which would require a slightly different way of doing it:

Job 1: 50% of damage converts to an AoE heal within 5yds of target, 20% is an AoE heal within 10yds. - Make this attach to the primary attack spell.

Job 2: 20% reduced healing for 10seconds after casting a damage spell. 10% boost to healing after 5seconds of not doing damage, 15% boost after 15 seconds., 20% boost after 1 minute.

(numbers would need extreme adjusting to balance.)

WoW does this... you have healers that are designed to attack and heal by attacking, and healers that are designed to heal only. WoW has also had a lot of trouble balancing this... so it's an "approach with caution" idea.

But until they "solidly encourage" one way or the other... FFXIV players will never stop arguing about what the role of a Healer is...
- So another solution is to just shrug and ignore all the arguments and play to your comfort zone.

[Makeda]

How does a healing-only playstyle benefit the player? I don't see any benefit to it. There are certainly times when you have to pump out some HPS but if you're only healing you're only prolonging the encounter you're in.

Being on cooldown when spike damage comes in. It's a risk. Some players have the skill and situational awareness to avoid it, many do not. More people think they have good timing and situational awareness than actually do...

How about when you are the only competent person in your instance, though?

I find a LOT more people believe this to be the case than is actually true.

People are extremely quick to cast blame for failures in group content on anyone but themselves. Some people are so fast at it, you have to wonder if it is not motivated by their own insecurities. People who do not wish to self-examine or be examined are usually very quick to judge others - this is something of a cycle in fact... for what they fear is actually being a target of someone with their same personality trait...

Much better to ALWAYS presume that if there is a failure, some portion of that falls on oneself, and seek self improvement BEFORE looking to force one's own idea of improvement upon others.

[MoroMurasaki]

Being on cooldown when spike damage comes in. It's a risk. Some players have the skill and situational awareness to avoid it, many do not. More people think they have good timing and situational awareness than actually do...

It isnt a risk. There is virtually no risk of your tank seeing his health bar disappear outside of tankbusters (which have cast bars) or large trash pulls in dungeons (which you should see happening and prepare for accordingly) so I don't underatand the risk you're referencing.


You can cancel a cast with any movement to use an oGCD heal or start casting a healing spell. It isn't difficult. People do it all the time.

If this is a conversation about EX primals and Savage healers need to be Dpsing because there is an enrage to beat. If it isn't you don't need to be holding your oGCDs/CDs because there is nothing apart from huge trash pulls that is actually threatening.

It's like people with this opinion haven't even actually played this game.

passive aggressive bull masquerading as philosophical advice.

I wrote two replies to this, both of them sort of lengthy, but then I remembered you're just a nameless internet troll who doesn't matter.

I hope to see you or one of your alts in a roulette some time so I can show you how far from the mark your rude, childish insinuations are.

[EmmaVirgin]

i will never get why heals in normal 4 man dungeons refuse to use any kind of damage skills. nobody needs 100% health for the whole run. these player are just bad heals or lazy.

oh boy i hate lazy player. i mean , im a summoner and i dont come into a dungeon and say: hey im a summoner only my egi is dealing damage.

if i see lazy heals around me i hope everytime that they die somehow and then i can say im a damage dealer i dont revive.

[KisaiTenshi]

i will never get why heals in normal 4 man dungeons refuse to use any kind of damage skills. nobody needs 100% health for the whole run. these player are just bad heals or lazy.

And that's exactly the attitude that creates this idiotic feedback loop of "healers have lots of downtime, healers are lazy, healers should dps more" -> "why u let me die?"

Ever get a tank with minimum ilevel gear? They die in two hits. If you're trying to speed things along by not healing the tank every 3 seconds, that guy is going to die, and then blame you. Even worse, is when these guys try to do a big pull and die in one hit.

[VanilleFang]

snip

This post is so incredibly false it hurts.

A tank at minimum ilvl will not die in "2 hits" or "3 seconds". Some tanks are harder to keep alive than others, yes, but I have never run into a tank that has die so easily. Perhaps if the tank refused to use CDs and they were hit by 2 critical back-to-back, maybe. Or if thwy stood in 2 AoEs. Maybe. But outside those scenarios a tank should never die that easily. On top of that healers have so many tools to keep their tanks healthy it's ridiculous. You can easily DPS while dropping (examples) Divine Benison, Asylum, Tetragrammaton, or Benediction. On top of that you can use Eye for an eye for big pulls, and keep Regen ticking for constant HP upkeep.

Maybe I'm just an amazing WHM but I never have issues keeping my tanks alive outside wild scenarios, such as the ones I have mentioned.

[Connor]

If all you’re talking about is the addition of these abilities with no ability or potency changes to the rest of each healer’s toolkit then I’m certainly on that boat with you. I think it might create some salty dps who aren’t getting buffed but that’s fine with me.

You’re right, my idea was basically just throwing things like that in role skills but leaving everything else the same, so you have a bit more options.

You’re also right in that the effectiveness of these kinds of abilities depends on the party. A 5% damage boost won’t mean much if the target is doing 1 dps, but if they’re doing 5000 suddenly it’s much more valuable.

Honestly in an ideal situation I’d like a pure buffer/support class, but for the reasons above it wouldn’t work in the current battle system; everyone needs to be able to make an active contribution to dealing damage, regardless of role. It wouldn’t be possible for healers to do so if they could only buff party members, especially if the party members aren’t dealing much damage in the first place. It would especially be a problem in content with an enrage.

That said, I think having the option to take a more supportive role would be cool, as long as it was understood that (given the current battle system) you will still be expected to deal damage, even if it’s just through putting up dots on downtime between healing/buffing