Idea to fix controversy about healer dps.

[Gemina]

I feel like this is so 2016, and hard to fathom that we are still stewing over this topic. The issue was never with the tool kits themselves, so modifying them really isn't going to change the meat of the issue which lies in the content of the game, and the attitude of the players. As an example, the ability Assize benefits both a healing minded and a DPS minded healer, yet a lot of WHMs don't utilize this skill, or not as often as they should.

I really hate seeing figures like 'healers have 60% downtime' or anything along those lines. Damage in this game varies on a lot of factors. The only figure that really matters is healers don't have to heal 100% of the time in any content, and there is nothing to punish healers for not filling the gap with DPS skills other than being scolded. But guess what? There also isn't much reward for adding the DPS other than a self pat on the back and maybe a few comms. Making healing more interesting for yourself and your mates by weaving in offensive skills between heals (or for others: weaving in heals between offensive skills) is a playstyle.

It is unfortunate that one playstyle benefits the entire group, while the other only benefits the player. However, it is fortunate that the heals-only playstyle doesn't hurt the group. So you honestly have to choose your battles, and luckily most of the battling happens here on the forums and not when peeps are actually playing and working towards a clear. I can say that when I tank, the only thing I care about the healer doing is keeping my butt alive. The regens, shields, ogcd heals, and timely cures are what I notice.

[HoodRat]

However, it is fortunate that the heals-only playstyle doesn't hurt the group.

The folks on the tank forums like to claim playing drk is a detriment to the group because you're not playing pld or war if you're playing drk. Since people don't like to challenge that reasoning, I see no reason why we can't use it here.

[MoroMurasaki]

I still believe that adding classic GCD buff spells like Bravery/Faith/Haste to healer role skills would go a long way to make the healer role more interesting, since you’d get a choice on whether to buff the party, heal, or dps. It gives more options without anyone having to give up their precious healer dps, since by increasing the party’s dps you’re essentially doing the same thing in a different way

If all you're talking about is the addition of these abilities with no ability or potency changes to the rest of each healer's toolkit then I'm certainly on that boat with you. I think it might create some salty dps who aren't getting buffed but that's fine with me.


My issue would be with the idea if replacing the current healer dps with abilities likely this. When you're grouped with strong dps it would be fine but if you had weaker players you would be left with no option to expedite things yourself. Buffing an Ice Mage into the 2k range is not as effective as spiking over 10k myself on trash in a dungeon. I've both seen my friends experience and been a part of myself too many instances where the top dps were healers and tanks.

At least with the current system we have the option to carry the brunt of the damage ourselves if we have to, even if some people are too stubborn/selfish to do it.

But guess what? There also isn't much reward for adding the DPS other than a self pat on the back and maybe a few comms. Making healing more interesting for yourself and your mates by weaving in offensive skills between heals (or for others: weaving in heals between offensive skills) is a playstyle.

It is unfortunate that one playstyle benefits the entire group, while the other only benefits the player. However, it is fortunate that the heals-only playstyle doesn't hurt the group. So you honestly have to choose your battles, and luckily most of the battling happens here on the forums and not when peeps are actually playing and working towards a clear. I can say that when I tank, the only thing I care about the healer doing is keeping my butt alive. The regens, shields, ogcd heals, and timely cures are what I notice.

How does a healing-only playstyle benefit the player? I don't see any benefit to it. There are certainly times when you have to pump out some HPS but if you're only healing you're only prolonging the encounter you're in.

In terms of not giving much of a reward that depends on context.

In EX primals and Savage (anything with an enrage really) your benefit is a quicker clear and not dying to enrage.

In content without an enrage you get a quicker clear.

I will acquiesce that there are situations in which your dps as a healer can feel more like a drop in the bucket. There is a BLM in my FC who is absolutely amazing and the few times I've done dungeons with him I have certainly felt like my dps doesn't matter as much. It becomes a question of competence. Outside of AoE burst any tank or DPS playing at a competent level will utterly destroy my dps numbers on WHM. Even though I feel like I do upper-end dungeon dps on WHM I just don't have the toolkit for single-target or sustained AoE like they do. In these parties even when I'm doing my best I am usually no more than 12-15% of the party dps.

How about when you are the only competent person in your instance, though? Dps not doing anything resembling a proper rotation, tank perpetually in tank stance generating unecessary aggro... these are the times when I end a dungeon at 30% or more of the group dps. When you consider how slow these runs are despite my dps (20-25 mins with no wipes) tacking on another 30% has you doing 40 mins in Kugane Castle.

Why is that not seen as a detriment?

At both the highest and lowest ends of content healer dps is literally nothing but beneficial and costs the party (and healer) nothing to contribute. The potential gain over time can be huge and there is simply no logical reason to deny your party this aid. To say it isn't detrimental to play a heal-only healer is like saying it isn't detrimental to not do your homework in school - you probably aren't going to fail because of it but it can only help you grow, learn and perform better.

[Makeda]

How does a healing-only playstyle benefit the player? I don't see any benefit to it. There are certainly times when you have to pump out some HPS but if you're only healing you're only prolonging the encounter you're in.

Being on cooldown when spike damage comes in. It's a risk. Some players have the skill and situational awareness to avoid it, many do not. More people think they have good timing and situational awareness than actually do...

How about when you are the only competent person in your instance, though?

I find a LOT more people believe this to be the case than is actually true.

People are extremely quick to cast blame for failures in group content on anyone but themselves. Some people are so fast at it, you have to wonder if it is not motivated by their own insecurities. People who do not wish to self-examine or be examined are usually very quick to judge others - this is something of a cycle in fact... for what they fear is actually being a target of someone with their same personality trait...

Much better to ALWAYS presume that if there is a failure, some portion of that falls on oneself, and seek self improvement BEFORE looking to force one's own idea of improvement upon others.

[MoroMurasaki]

Being on cooldown when spike damage comes in. It's a risk. Some players have the skill and situational awareness to avoid it, many do not. More people think they have good timing and situational awareness than actually do...

It isnt a risk. There is virtually no risk of your tank seeing his health bar disappear outside of tankbusters (which have cast bars) or large trash pulls in dungeons (which you should see happening and prepare for accordingly) so I don't underatand the risk you're referencing.


You can cancel a cast with any movement to use an oGCD heal or start casting a healing spell. It isn't difficult. People do it all the time.

If this is a conversation about EX primals and Savage healers need to be Dpsing because there is an enrage to beat. If it isn't you don't need to be holding your oGCDs/CDs because there is nothing apart from huge trash pulls that is actually threatening.

It's like people with this opinion haven't even actually played this game.

passive aggressive bull masquerading as philosophical advice.

I wrote two replies to this, both of them sort of lengthy, but then I remembered you're just a nameless internet troll who doesn't matter.

I hope to see you or one of your alts in a roulette some time so I can show you how far from the mark your rude, childish insinuations are.

[EmmaVirgin]

i will never get why heals in normal 4 man dungeons refuse to use any kind of damage skills. nobody needs 100% health for the whole run. these player are just bad heals or lazy.

oh boy i hate lazy player. i mean , im a summoner and i dont come into a dungeon and say: hey im a summoner only my egi is dealing damage.

if i see lazy heals around me i hope everytime that they die somehow and then i can say im a damage dealer i dont revive.

[KisaiTenshi]

i will never get why heals in normal 4 man dungeons refuse to use any kind of damage skills. nobody needs 100% health for the whole run. these player are just bad heals or lazy.

And that's exactly the attitude that creates this idiotic feedback loop of "healers have lots of downtime, healers are lazy, healers should dps more" -> "why u let me die?"

Ever get a tank with minimum ilevel gear? They die in two hits. If you're trying to speed things along by not healing the tank every 3 seconds, that guy is going to die, and then blame you. Even worse, is when these guys try to do a big pull and die in one hit.

[VanilleFang]

snip

This post is so incredibly false it hurts.

A tank at minimum ilvl will not die in "2 hits" or "3 seconds". Some tanks are harder to keep alive than others, yes, but I have never run into a tank that has die so easily. Perhaps if the tank refused to use CDs and they were hit by 2 critical back-to-back, maybe. Or if thwy stood in 2 AoEs. Maybe. But outside those scenarios a tank should never die that easily. On top of that healers have so many tools to keep their tanks healthy it's ridiculous. You can easily DPS while dropping (examples) Divine Benison, Asylum, Tetragrammaton, or Benediction. On top of that you can use Eye for an eye for big pulls, and keep Regen ticking for constant HP upkeep.

Maybe I'm just an amazing WHM but I never have issues keeping my tanks alive outside wild scenarios, such as the ones I have mentioned.

[Tridus]

And that's exactly the attitude that creates this idiotic feedback loop of "healers have lots of downtime, healers are lazy, healers should dps more" -> "why u let me die?"

Ever get a tank with minimum ilevel gear? They die in two hits. If you're trying to speed things along by not healing the tank every 3 seconds, that guy is going to die, and then blame you. Even worse, is when these guys try to do a big pull and die in one hit.

Only in some people's mind. People creating this feedback loop seem to have a hard time with the concept of priorities. If your tank is dying that fast, you'll be so busy healing him that you'll be active almost all the time. Thus, you're busy contributing to group success and not standing around doing nothing, which is fine.

"Tank in Shire doing double pulls in Bardam's mettle" is not even remotely the same situation as "tank in Savage gear in Kugane Castle", because in one of those you're healing constantly and in the other Regen can cover most of the healing while you've got nothing else to do, so why not toss some rocks?

The order has never been "ignore healing to DPS more". It's "don't stand around doing nothing waiting for something to heal, use that time to DPS."

[Gemina]

How does a healing-only playstyle benefit the player? I don't see any benefit to it. There are certainly times when you have to pump out some HPS but if you're only healing you're only prolonging the encounter you're in.

It benefits the heals-only playstyle because they don't want to DPS. You seem to be mistaken, and believe that the heals-only healer cares about quick clears. They don't, otherwise they'd be contributing to the group's overall DPS. A clear is a clear, whether it takes 15 minutes, or 30.

In terms of not giving much of a reward that depends on context.

In EX primals and Savage (anything with an enrage really) your benefit is a quicker clear and not dying to enrage.

In content without an enrage you get a quicker clear.

A clear is everyone's objective for entering an instance. Both a DPSing healer and a heals-only healer will get this reward. You can bring up EX/Savage (enrage timers), but heals-only healers get clears here too. You do know that healers cannot be condemned for the group not beating an enrage timer, correct? Sure it still happens, and normally comes from the player who hinders their own DPS rotation by failing mechanics and dying. This player, is very quick to blame a healer if they are DPSing.

I will acquiesce that there are situations in which your dps as a healer can feel more like a drop in the bucket. There is a BLM in my FC who is absolutely amazing and the few times I've done dungeons with him I have certainly felt like my dps doesn't matter as much.

I will name one of those situations: When the devs do their testing before releasing content. The whole 'healer DPS isn't factored into clears' thing. Don't get me wrong. I never said healers not DPSing isn't a problem. It just doesn't lead to anything game breaking if they chose not to do it, nor is it as big of an issue as everyone makes it. I specifically stated that the problem is the design of content (and to a further extent, the way healers are designed), and the attitudes of the playerbase.

Both Tanks and DPS jobs are designed in a way that they always have to be pushing something. This is not the case for healers. However, healers are the only ones tasked with keeping everyone alive. It is impossible with the way the game is designed for healers to not have downtime. What they choose to do with this downtime is where the meta and players attitudes come in. The faulty attitudes comes from those adamant about scorning healers for not DPSing, and the healers who outright refuse to add offensive skills to combat.

That said, nothing makes me feel more worthless as a healer than when my group still clears a boss with over 50% HP and I'm lying on the floor. It's like, "Why am I even here?" Again, bad design. This should not even be possible if SE wants healers to be healers.

It becomes a question of competence. Outside of AoE burst any tank or DPS playing at a competent level will utterly destroy my dps numbers on WHM. Even though I feel like I do upper-end dungeon dps on WHM I just don't have the toolkit for single-target or sustained AoE like they do.

Of course not. You're a healer. It is not good design for healers to be able to keep everyone alive whilst putting up comparable numbers to actual DPS jobs. Healers in this game are already quite powerful enough as it is.

How about when you are the only competent person in your instance, though? Dps not doing anything resembling a proper rotation, tank perpetually in tank stance generating unecessary aggro... these are the times when I end a dungeon at 30% or more of the group dps. When you consider how slow these runs are despite my dps (20-25 mins with no wipes) tacking on another 30% has you doing 40 mins in Kugane Castle.

Why is that not seen as a detriment?

My thoughts exactly. But you're raising a different issue than healer DPS or lack of it. This situation is a faulty group, not a faulty healer. I've carried clears before. They're not rewarding. In fact, I usually feel like crap afterwards thinking it was all my fault even though in the back of my head I know I was contributing 110% to that group, and likely still got scolded because I was DPSing. Do you feel this is rewarding?

At both the highest and lowest ends of content healer dps is literally nothing but beneficial and costs the party (and healer) nothing to contribute. The potential gain over time can be huge and there is simply no logical reason to deny your party this aid. To say it isn't detrimental to play a heal-only healer is like saying it isn't detrimental to not do your homework in school - you probably aren't going to fail because of it but it can only help you grow, learn and perform better.

Healer DPS is only beneficial if they can reliably do it and still take care of the party. If they cannot, then it hurts the party. There is no disputing this. Your primary role and the reason why you are brought into content is to heal, and if you're not doing it you will be kicked far more swiftly than not DPSing. However, there is also no disputing that competent healer DPS benefits everyone, but I already made that point in my OP.