Dev blog: New Feast rewards

[Awha]

Thank you, you were able to explain my point a lot better hopefully that will make it easier for them to answer my question.



Awha keeps asking you this question (i.e., “repeating himself” as you like to say) because you refuse to provide a straightforward answer without resorting to more snark and needless comments (example: your “I wouldn’t be surprised if you supported the following” remark). And he brings up a good point when he says that the only one who can devalue an item is the owner. If other people/more people having something detracts from its value to you (using the general “you” here, mind you), maybe it wasn’t that valuable to you in the first place as a mark/measure of your accomplishments, but only as something to hold over others so that you could brag.

People try to have reasonable discussions with you, but you won’t allow for that with the way you speak to them.



That is your opinion. That is not a fact.

The reward for graduating college is a diploma. College can be challenging, yes, but it can also be very easy.
The reward you get for working is money. Work can be tiring, yes, but it can also be very simple.

The value in an item is not only determined by how hard it is to get. Maybe that is how you determine value, but your definitions of value do not apply to everyone else. Some of the most valuable things I own I put zero effort into receiving; actually, most are gifts given to me by people I love. Those are more valuable to me than my college degree (not to say it isn’t valuable, mind you, but that I find more value in the other things compared to it).

What you are defining is materialistic value.

Thank you, you were able to explain my point a lot better hopefully that will make it easier for them to answer the question.

[Nihility]

Only a small portion, most of which is old 1.x stuff. Even the minions they add to merchandise stopped having timed exclusives due to the number of complaints. PvP remains the lone holdout on exclusivity.

that's not even pve exclusive though. The only stuff that is exclusive but not pvp is stuff from parts of 1.0 that don't even exist anymore which is more like "whole other game exclusive" and merchandise bonuses which aren't any kind of gameplay exclusive.
Everything else is either always available and made easier as time goes on or added to mogstation six months later if it was event based

[Tsumdere]

Maybe they should remove the arbitrary number of people who receive it, add ranked decay, and give the rewards to everyone Gold and above just like League does with Victorious skins. Give the players who reach Diamond the same mount but with sparklies.

It is still timed, it is still competitive, but it gives newbies and those with significantly less time a chance to give it a go.

[HyoMinPark]

You personally believe PVP shouldn't have exclusives since PVE doesn't. That isn't a fact, it is your opinion, and you are in fact complaining about it. There is no word twisting, you have long echoed the sentiment.

You like to say I'm twisting your words, but i have repeatedly shown you the opposite. you just like repeating the phrase because you can't really defend your own thoughts and beliefs when you continue to deny them. It's ok.

I’ll admit that I like consistency, and I don’t think that there should be any timed exclusives in this game really, because of the attitudes like what I’ve seen here feed off of them. But stating my opinion doesn’t equate to complaining or whining. Hard to believe, but people can state something without actually complaining about it.

to state—verb
-to declare definitely or specifically: She stated her position on the case.
-to set forth formally in speech or writing: to state a hypothesis.
-to set forth in proper or definite form: to state a problem.
-to say.
-to fix or settle, as by authority.

to complain—verb
-to express dissatisfaction, pain, uneasiness, censure, resentment, or grief; find fault: He complained constantly about the noise in the corridor.
-to tell of one's pains, ailments, etc.: to complain of a backache.
-to make a formal accusation: If you think you've been swindled, complain to the police.

to whine—verb
-to utter a low, usually nasal, complaining cry or sound, as from uneasiness, discontent, peevishness, etc.: The puppies were whining from hunger.
-to snivel or complain in a peevish, self-pitying way: He is always whining about his problems.
—verb (used with object)
-to utter with or as if with a whine: I whined my litany of complaints.

As for my thoughts, I can defend them very well, thank you. The examples of someone being unable to defend their arguments lie with remarks that debate the character of the opposing party versus the actual argument, or who deflect with needless snark. My posts may have had some light snark in them, but at least I don’t resort to trying to debunk your character.

As for the twisting words, let’s not forget:

I’m only saying I doubt they’ll consider leaving older Ultimates locked behind level and ilvl syncs when new expansions come out because there will be new Ultimates at that point, since they have claimed that UCoB is not the first and only of its kind. With a new expansion, they will probably figure that there’s no need to maintain the syncs anymore.

What you think they will do is irrelevant. If that was true they wouldn't have added ilvl sync in the first place.

Nah the biggest point is the time exclusivity, and I have already said that if top 100 players from future seasons want to forfeit the current seasons reward for a past one, that would be fine. You seem to have a problem with people not having the talent or skill to be capable of obtaining such items or mounts. However Ultimate is already non-reachable for about 99.9% of the playerbase.

"Wow it's so hard SE please nerf and give me everything"

That is such a sad mentality

Also Hyomin made the claim that they would probably nerf Ultimate to make it easy for people. This falls in line with her achievement solution which really is a want.

The insinuation that I want Ultimate nerfed because I mentioned the item level sync possibly being removed in 5.0 because that is the precedent the developers have set since Heavensward. Nowhere in there did I claim I wanted it nerfed, or that it should be nerfed. Not what I said at all. Part twisting words, part putting new words in my mouth.

If saying that people are whining is condescending, there is nothing I can do about it. If a fact is that upsetting to you maybe you should self reflect.

I said that your remarks towards people are condescending.

condescending—adjective
-showing or implying a usually patronizing descent from dignity or superiority: They resented the older neighbors' condescending cordiality.

I suppose I should quote your condescending remarks that have nothing to do with you saying people are whining and everything to do with the fact that you feel like your exclusivity is threatened? Because I believe I have already quoted some throughout this thread.

"I-it isn't BELIEVE ME"

There you go again, putting words in my mouth. Please quote where I said that.

You can’t prove your own arguments so you resort to immature comments like that. Are we in 2nd grade? Prove your arguments with logic, not with this nonsense.

Well this is FFXIV 3.0 and beyond. SE is perfectly within their right to innovate the game as they please. If you are trying to argue that SE shouldn't be trying different things then you are already on the losing end of the battle lol. And you may want to say having a achievement pretty much no one else has doesn't make people unique and special in relation to others, but that just isn't true. Someone got top 100 and someone else didn't, there is a clear difference. You seem to have a problem with people being unique and not all the "same" or "equal"

You seem to have a problem with people being “equal”. You seem to want to feel special. Why is that?

And where did I argue that SE shouldn’t try new things? Nowhere. I don’t even know where you pulled that one from.

Why would you even talk about it if you didn't care about it. You literally say you don't like the idea of exclusives. It's obvious you do care to a extent otherwise you wouldn't even be a part of this conversation. Just contradictions everywhere on your part.

Because I’m trying to have a discussion? Sometimes when I have nothing to do, I go to a discussion forum and try to discuss things with people; considering when I first came into this thread I was waiting on a DPS queue, it was something to do.

People can discuss things that don’t interest them if they just want to have a discussion with other players, or understand why they feel the way they do. Which is pretty much what Awha is trying to do, but you keep brushing him off with your snark instead of providing a straight-forward polite answer. They will of course be far more passionate about things that hold their interest, but they can still attempt a discussion at something that does not.

Again, not my fault that whining and complain about how SE does certain things offends you. It's already quite clear you have a problem with the current system and you claiming you don't care or w.e is going to change that.

If giving feedback or thoughts/opinions on something is “being offended”... I have to say, that is news to me.

I don’t have a problem so much with the system right now as I do with your attitude. That being said, I think (and I am not alone in this) that SE needs to really look at making PvP itself more attractive to the general playerbase (this includes the Feast) without throwing in exclusive mounts to try and entice players into doing it. Considering the current state of even more “casual” PvP... This would call for a system revamp, which I think they should look in to. Maybe it would entice more players like me (those “casuals”) to actually give something like Ranked Feast a try. The mounts don’t do it because I don’t like the system, and I feel fairly confident when I say I’m not alone in that.

Adding in timed rewards is just a thinly veiled attempt to draw players into the mode. It’s not trying to fix the mode itself to make it more appealing, but giving the mode shinies in hopes people will fight to partitipate. While I don’t have hard numerical proof of this, I don’t think it’s working out for them, so they should probably consider actually looking at PvP in general instead of just throwing in mounts into it.

You pretty much ignored the entire point of the post. If you hold value in something that is relatively useless to society that's on you. We are talking about things that everyone can agree holds value either through extreme hard work/achievement or something similar.

Your definition of value is your own personal definition, regardless of what it’s referring to; it’s not the same for everyone. That’s why Awha is asking you what he is asking you: Why would it matter if others were eventually able to obtain a Hellhound or the Hojo-chair? Is it because your Hellhound or Hojo-chair will be devalued? The closest thing you gave to an answer is that definition, but if someone had to win 1,000 Feast matches 2 years after the Hellhounds were a thing, how is that somehow less effort than what you put in to it? Can you determine the value of effort?

I’m sorry, but that definition doesn’t apply to everyone. It obviously doesn’t apply to Awha, or he wouldn’t be asking you what he’s asking.

You are suggesting that items that you have to work hard for should be made available to everyone in some easier fashion. That is just logically wrong and even immoral.

Where did I say that? Quote, please.

Here’s what I actually think on these sort of things, before you start telling me what I actually think about them again:

I will use the Ultimate title as an example, since it’s using something that is hard to obtain and takes effort to get. Let’s say that I clear Ultimate at the end of Patch 4.2. Yay! Now, let’s say that they removed the sync in 5.0, and a bunch of people go in, in their i400 gear, and steamroll it. Okay, now they have the title. Well, I’m not miffed. Because I cleared it when it was relevant; I know I cleared it, I had the title for a year or more, and I enjoyed my synced experience. It doesn’t devalue the title for me if others can unsync it later. But I don’t place that much stock in virtual achievements.

And you know what, a lot of what your are describing is personal value. That doesn't actually matter in this discussion.

Except it does, because value is a subjective measure.

Anyways I've reached my post limit again. It is quite funny you are still posting despite declaring you weren't going to anymore pages ago and that you don't care lol. contradicting yourself to the end

Yeah, I did say I would stop because I didn’t want to waste my post count, but there is nothing else that I would probably use them on anyways, so why not. Feel free to say I’m contradicting myself there if you want. It may shock you, though, if I were to say that I am actually interested in this thread, though.

[Crit]

as someone mentioned earlier, WoW's gladiator mounts (top 1%) are recolored with armor. another good compromise is doing the same, like for instance the hellhounds for season 3 and 4 should've been armored in a way and recolored to not be red, but having a very unique and neat looking color, and there is an alternative hellhound mount obtained by some dungeon lets say, its the standard unarmored plain red model. would that ideology make everyone happy? i do understand how you all think its unfair for unique models to be limited and exclusive but i personally ENJOY that type of notion, the prestige in itself is rewarding.

[Vahlnir]

as someone mentioned earlier, WoW's gladiator mounts (top 1%) are recolored with armor. another good compromise is doing the same, like for instance the hellhounds for season 3 and 4 should've been armored in a way and recolored to not be red, but having a very unique and neat looking color, and there is an alternative hellhound mount obtained by some dungeon lets say, its the standard unarmored plain red model. would that ideology make everyone happy? i do understand how you all think its unfair for unique models to be limited and exclusive but i personally ENJOY that type of notion, the prestige in itself is rewarding.

This would be an excellent compromise, coming from someone who plays WoW.

[Crit]

for a more clear example of what i'm talking about, this is the WoW storm drake obtained from pve



and this is one of the time limited exclusive pvp storm drakes for the top 1%

[Stormfur]

See, Crit, this is why I like you. This would be a compromise that would be fair to everyone. Although I still think they should fix the glaring issues in pvp, rewards notwithstanding. You can't put a glittery bandaid over a wound and hope people will cut themselves for it.

[Awha]

You pretty much ignored the entire point of the post. If you hold value in something that is relatively useless to society that's on you.

In the grand scheme of things the pixels you earn in this game are relatively useless. End of the day society does not care about the value one attributives to "relatively useless" things only those that have an interest in said item care about the value and even if they made it easier to get the item said community has no reason to not value the items importance so to speak since it is not the item itself that holds the value but what the item represents, aka in this case your effort and skill. This will still remain within your local community in this case PvP.

We are talking about things that everyone can agree holds value either through extreme hard work/achievement or something similar.

Clearly not everyone can agree that top 100 items inherently hold any value. This is where our disagreement I think stems from. You feel that hard work/achievement in itself are reason enough as to why someone should value the rewards you obtained through your accomplishments.

Do not get me wrong I do agree that you personally should hold value for your accomplishments but I do not think that means due to the effort you put into something inherently gives your accomplishments collective value. Hope that makes sense. Guess what I am trying to say just because your value something does not mean I have to attribute the same value. More or less why do you get to make the choice how the collective should attribute the value of something?

And you know what, a lot of what your are describing is personal value. That doesn't actually matter in this discussion.

Value is subjective, like it our not the collective does not to agree with what you hold as valuable, and if you let that effect the value of something you earned then I am sorry. Do not let other dictate the value of something you earned, undermine the effort and time that went into reaching your goal no matter how long it takes. You are the only person that can rob the value an accomplishment, no one else.

You are suggesting that items that you have to work hard for should be made available to everyone in some easier fashion. That is just logically wrong and even immoral.

I will use Shadowmourne, my guild in WoW during WoLK came together and I happened to be the second person on the server to complete the weapon. As the years passed Shadowmourne became more common, and even if one it rains Shadowmourne's from sky it would not detract from the collective effort that went into earning that weapon. I will always hold it dear as silly as that sounds. Not because of the item itself but went into getting said item the experience of earning it is where I personally attribute the value.

Though if you do not mind how is it logically wrong and immoral to obtain something through easier means. With progression don't things inherently become easier as time goes on, does that detract from past accomplishments.

Things through out life have become easier as time goes on. Take old school sports records they get broken but that does not detract from accomplishments of the past record holders. Maybe not the best example but hope you get what I am trying to get at.

Also let us be civil about this we are just trying to have a conversation.

[Aviars]

Because people seem to just repeat themselves over and over again I will just gather up every reason people think PVP shouldn't have exclusive rewards from what I observed and debunk them one by one.

1. SE should be consistent. PVP is the only game mode that offers a exclusive item that is only obtainable by 100 people per datacenter. It is unfair that PVP has this privilege.

First off, Square Enix is by no means obligated to stay within their trademarked and predicable ExtremePrimal + Savage Raid into 24man Raid/repeat and nothing else. Square Enix is allowed and ALSO ENCOURAGED to think outside of the box and provide the community with new ways to compete and play the game. Just because it upsets you that Square Enix is doing something new and different does not mean they are in the wrong.

If people are so insistent on Square Enix not changing why not complain about Ultimate Coil? It offers unprecedented difficulty, it offers a best in slot weapon outside of savage raids and title for that difficulty, it lies outside of the cookie cutter patch cycles that you've come to know/expect and it also features ilvl syncs even after it's gear relevancy. It is quite clearly a contradiction in their entire argument. Why don't people complain about that? I have my own thoughts about why that is, but I'll let you guys stew that one over.

2. Feast is full of cheaters, it shouldn't have exclusive rewards because of it.

I for one know through playing Feast since season 1 that cheating is not as widespread as you tend to think. However that isn't really relevant to what I am about to say. There are MANY things in this game that people cheat in, people cheat in savage raids, ultimate coil and pretty much anything else you can think of in this game. Does that somehow make it necessary for SE to provide alternative and easier ways for people to obtain said items in those game modes? Absolutely not.

To go further RMT is a huge problem in this game, people can buy 100million gil with a swipe of a credit card. Does that mean Square Enix is supposed to hand people gil due to the fact that people RMT? 100% no.

You can argue that Square Enix needs to step up their game in regards to cheating, but that doesn't mean you advocate for changes to the game itself to make it as easy as cheating.

3. PVE players wanted this mount/gear, pve players deserve it more than PVP players.

Probably one of the more transparent reasons out there, the community in general demands and wants everything. Why should PVE have a monopoly on all unique mounts? Just because it exists? Just to remind you PVP is in fact a part of FFXIV, it's pretty much impossible for content to be created for PVP that isn't somehow related to PVE in some vague and obscure way. The gorilla robot mount in rival wings is a good example, it is eerily similar to Garlean magitek and subsequently the Magna Roader boss in Castrum Abania. Is it somehow now taboo that PVP has this mount? You tell me.

I do wonder why people didn't complain about that? I will answer this with the next point.

4. Top 100 is WAY to hard for the normal player, it isn't fair for people that are incapable of being in the top 100.

This is a doozy, but people do COMPLAIN that they have to be better than other people in order to receive certain mounts or items. THAT IS THE NATURE OF PVP. It is the main reason why you don't see people whining over mounts like the Gorilla mount that Rival Wings provides. It is because it is TOO HARD. Which I now say this, why shouldn't hard work, talent, skill, practice, time and so on be rewarded with a unique item? Why are people allergic to the prospect of people being better than them? I think for the most part it is because the top 100 is getting rewarded with something they want. You never saw people complain about the hellhound earrings provided, despite the that, oh wow, they are related to something you find in void ark....... It is purely because people see something that they want that they start to complain.

There should be no reason past or current items provided for top 100 should be available for current users through relatively easier means. Especially since Square Enix PROMISED that these items would not be available after the fact, that they would be exclusive forever. I tend to think Square Enix should keep their word.

And to the people that say that Savage raids or Ultimate coil don't provide exclusive mounts, go back to my explanation of Point #1, it is enlightening.



There are also other reasons people complain, but many of them can be debunked with the point I made in Number 1.

To conclude my big wall of text. I just want to say Square Enix is trying to innovate their game by fostering the sense of competition in PVP through the use of unique rewards. There is nothing wrong with Square Enix rewarding people for extraordinary effort and skill. Sometimes you have to accept that NOT EVERYTHING IS MEANT FOR YOU. Real life is the same way, you just got to deal with it.

Hopefully the entitled attitude for access to absolutely everything goes away. Thanks for reading.

Edit: This will probably be my last post on the matter. There is no more reason for me to stay in here longer than I have explaining the same points over and over again for the last couple days. See you guys in the next thread complaining about a reward they can't obtain. Cheers

Edit2: some typos