Im Done

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

"Seemingly only play Frontlines."

The Fold died because of poor balancing, gear imbalances (which were fixed and became a universal thing with Frontlines/ilvl sync), and generally poor reception and complete ignoring by the more PvE-focused, allergic to/hateful toward PvP community of this game. And while I never implied 3.x PvP was perfectly balanced, it was a hell of a lot better than this "foundation" of a system that lacks depth, and STILL fails to be the appeal for "E-Sports Feast" that they so wildly tipped the scales for.

Funny though that 2.0 to 3.0 combat was "essentially the same thing" that many players enjoyed (even if imperfect) and claim held more depth and longevity than what we have now; many players, not unlike yourself who were there for all of it. As was I.

[Levy9]

I didn't mean you specifically. For example, there are threads where people complain about class balance while citing their experience in Frontlines only. Others chime in and blame 4.0 pvp balance.

The Fold was imbalanced for a lot of the same reasons as 3.0 Feast. They both had double digit crowd control times for abilities and class kits that simply didn't belong in PvP, while other classes translated well. MCH was widely considered one of the best classes in 3.0 PvP though. You almost never saw MCH's in 3.0 PvE content, but I'd queue for PvP and my games would be full of them.

There were still gear imbalances in 3.0 Frontlines, even with ilvl sync. I remember seeing people in 3.0 Frontlines getting one shot from max health by melee dps limit breaks. If you didn't meet a certain hp threshold with your gear configuration the limit break would kill, regardless of the ilvl sync. I like the core of what we have now better balance-wise. It just needs more traits & abilities.

[Zojha]

I like the core of what we have now better balance-wise.

You're free to do - it's all yours! If enough people quit, it even literally is.

I encourage people to just vote with their feet. If you like it, go and play it. If you don't, don't.
Just don't come around yapping about "Not enough rewards! Pls SE bribe people harder!". PvP comes with 3 different tomes (current endgame one included), seals/wolf mark and a bunch of titles/mounts from achievements by now. It has all the rewards it needs. It just needs to git gut.

[Levy9]

I encourage people to just vote with their feet. If you like it, go and play it. If you don't, don't.

Right. People voted with their feet when they all came to PvP for the Garo rewards. Things went from no queue pops outside of prime time to 5 minute queue pops all day everyday for at least a month. People are forgetting that PvP participation was also in the gutter for lengthy periods during 3.0. Garo actually changed that...massively. No bot explosion either. That came with the 4.0 XP.

I don't understand why you think sub paying MMO PvPers should just play for fun without competing for anything or earning anything unique to PvP. We can't even grind rank and climb the ladder in 4.2. What popular PvP game has that expectation for it's players? I think I'll make one last post in the 4.2 feedback thread specifying what I'm getting at.

[Zojha]

Right. People voted with their feet when they all came to PvP for the Garo rewards.

And they would have done the same with Lord of Verminion if SE had put the same rewards into Lord of Verminion instead, because the content was irrelevant - what mattered were the rewards.

What does that have to do with PvP as such? That's just normal incentive behavior. If you pay people enough, they'll even lick a turd in front of a camera - Trash TV already proved as much. That doesn't make the turd appetizing, though, that just means you offered a good bribe. And every time you ask for more bribes, you admit that what you're promoting is, well... not appetizing.

As for popular PvP games... it's funny that you even mention rank and ladders in that context, because the vast majority of players in a given PvP game doesn't even care about ranked. Feel free to compare the active player count in league of legends vs the amount of people in the rank statistics. Last I checked it was like 10% with very generous rounding.
Most people play for the heck of it. Aside from a newbie that just wants a particular champion badly, I never had anyone even mention rewards in LoL. It's taken for granted you come for the game, not for the shiny. It wasn't a topic in SMITE either. I don't think that if I went into SC2 and asked why people still play the game, they'd answer:"Because of the portraits" either. The entire WC3 custom game scene flourished without rewards - You only got icons from matched regular games. In most PvP games, playing for rewards instead of for the game is an alien concept.

And it's not even that PvP here had no rewards - You can get endgame gear with it, you can get various currencies to convert into crafted mats/leveling gear/other currencies/quest tokens/whatever with it, it has a whole bunch of exclusive titles and ever so often, they add a new set or mount to it - I'm not even counting ranked stuff because lol 100 people per data center. Since recently, you can also level with it. That's not "nothing". That's a bunch. A whole bunch. And if that bunch doesn't suffice, frankly, the issue is the gameplay, not the rewards.

And you know what? Most of the people I know - Me included - Rather play other, less rewarding games than bother with this game's PvP at this point.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Right. People voted with their feet when they all came to PvP for the Garo rewards. Things went from no queue pops outside of prime time to 5 minute queue pops all day everyday for at least a month. People are forgetting that PvP participation was also in the gutter for lengthy periods during 3.0. Garo actually changed that...massively. No bot explosion either. That came with the 4.0 XP.

I need to correct this now, and every time it's said:

Garo did NOT improve queues. Sure, it was the first in game event that was PvP-oriented (as per the Garo creator's wishes), but that event launched right beside the overhaul of Wolf Mark rewards and reward costs (a huge improvement in itself. Instead of a body piece costing 12,800 marks or so, they now only cost 4000), and more importantly, Frontline Freelancer - the GC restriction removal the community asked and begged for for 3 years. Nobody asked for Garo; it was nice to have, but that pales in comparison to a feature the community wanted so badly, and even said would improve queues, and that's exactly what it did.

[Akor]

snip

Queue times on FL did improved upon of freelancer, but over all shorting queue times was thanks to the garo event and not bc of the freelancer which bring botters in the FL thx to garo event. Now with 4.0 queue times dint change bc of the XP reward. Reward system was more like QoL too which was good to botters bc it was easier get items to desync/exchange them for seals.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

The shortening of queue times is almost entirely the result of Freelancer.

Let's look at a 24 man match. The long-standing issue had been GC imbalances, which is why we wanted restrictions lifted in the first place. People buy into poor logic such as "red team always wins" so people mass transfer to Mael. Now Mael queues are say, 14 people queueing for Mael. That leaves 6 Flames, and 4 Adders. . . This is largely what choked up queues. Bring in Freelancer, and now it doesn't matter who's on what team, if the system registers 24 in queue, there's your match.

More people queued because they wanted the Garo rewards may have helped, yes, but had Freelancer not been implemented - and remember, we asked for Freelancer for 3 years, not Garo - it may have only compounded the problems from before. But give the people something they wanted for a long time and you're sure to get a positive response. Wouldn't you agree?

[Akor]

snip

Yes like i sayd, the fakt we got shorter queue is bc of the change to freelancer, but i added on that the whole garo event busted the over all queue times shorter even more. >_> Even after the garo event hype went of the queue times was still solid 10-15 mins isntead of 20+mins. <_< I hope i cleared with this now. lol

[Mofafafa]

Yes like i sayd, the fakt we got shorter queue is bc of the change to freelancer, but i added on that the whole garo event busted the over all queue times shorter even more. >_> Even after the garo event hype went of the queue times was still solid 10-15 mins isntead of 20+mins. <_< I hope i cleared with this now. lol

akor plis, why you trolling m8 lul

I mean you're technically right. But think about

- Garo Event release without the freelance option,
- All the newbie will be joining asap, and possibly switch to the *STRONGER* GC to earn a WIN to their checklist
- In the end, the queue will be slow because of congestion on the *stronger* GC being populated while the other GC stay unpopulated with the assumption