Would Bards and Machinists make good use of Diversion?

[zuzu-bq]

But again...WAR is a tank, and it's supposed to be generating aggro. Unless you're insinuating that Bard and Machinist are tanks?

I'm talking about situations they aren't pulling the boss. Its a bad situation example just to fit the guy's logic. Don't sweat about it. They said the burst being high makes it possible to rip aggro too early in a fight and Warriors actually have that capacity given certains circumstances. Just like a lot of other jobs do anyways. Since IR's chance you can see WAR enmity skyrocket when they aren't the ones to pull.

And what about when you’re progging, a melee gets hit by something, dies, accepts Raise > Invigorate...but then die again before Invigorate is back off of CD? Then it’s up to the BRD/MCH with Tactician to provide them TP... but they can’t if they are forced to use it after their opener to dump their aggro. Same thing with Refresh: healer used Lucid for MP regen (or for WHM in V4S, aggro dump if you didn’t have a PLD to Cover them for Aero III), dies, is raised... but now has no MP. BRD/MCH should be able to provide them with MP....but if they’ve had to Refresh to dump their aggro, well, they can’t.

It's also their job to avoid death. So don't blame yourself for it. Just say it's not up yet and keep playing the game. You're beating youeself for other player's mistakes too much. I've been on the melee side of this comparison as RDM on the MP concern. It sucks but I know it was my fault at the end. If they're blaming you for it they are just being really silly.

[HyoMinPark]

I'm talking about situations they aren't pulling the boss. Its a bad situation example just to fit the guy's logic. Don't sweat about it. They said the burst being high makes it possible to rip aggro too early in a fight and Warriors actually have that capacity given certains circumstances. Just like a lot of other jobs do anyways. Since IR's chance you can see WAR enmity skyrocket when they aren't the ones to pull.

WARs are always supposed to be the MT—they will always be pulling the boss. Therefore, them pulling aggro won’t be an issue because they’re supposed to MT. They lose nothing by doing so ever since Unchained was removed from sharing the same CD as Inner Release.

You don’t see WARs ripping bosses off of other tanks—you see DPS that have either no option to quell their burst, or who refuse to quell it, ripping off of them.

EDIT: I edit this to fix a typo, and now half of my post is gone. WTF.

[zuzu-bq]

Yes, that's why I said it was a silly example. I agree WAR should be pulling, its really good anyways. But they aren't everytime. You can't control how every player wants to play the game. Which lead to: the Warrior will be a better player if they pull. Which also leads to: they're a good player if they keep enmity to them as a main tank. Which leads into...

It’s not a “playing better” situation.

"Playing better" is also the answer to nearly anything to be honest.

I have nothing else to add to the discussion. And do mind I agree with some points you all brought. I just think adding Diversion to BRDs would be silly and the reason they didn't is to make uncoordinated group's gameplay flow better. And I agree on everything you said on how Diversion could add up to BRD/MCH. I just think the reasons you been providing aren't strong enough. And my final answer to the OP question is: Yes, they can. But it would fit only very specific niches where playing better is a more reasonable and healthier option.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

And that's why Invigorate still exists. Although you're not entirely wrong, outside of that saying the melee is being punished by dying past Tactician is bad well, yes it is. But again they died, if death had no punishment in the game no one would care about dying. There has to be punishments to deaths to incentivise players on avoiding it.

Paladin and Dark Knight wish they had access to that. Even Warrior only gets 200 TP from Equilibrium. Death has a punishment, you suffer a 25% penalty towards all your stats except vitality; 50% if it happens within that 90 second interval. I can assure you whenever I die, TP is far less a concern than my damage plummeting. You really ought to stop using these comparisons. They're quite bad.

If Diversion would simply be better you wouldn't see BLMs running without it. Which they do, constantly. The example your provided only shows someone didn't slot Invigorate in a run with possibility of death and got hurt because of it. If you're progressing a fight or expect deaths to happen you should slot the skills to play around it.

First and foremost, most optimal Caster guides suggest both, though put more emphasis on at least having one. Second, casters generate much higher sustained enmity than ranged whereas the latter only needs aggro cuts in their opener. Basically, it boils down to Diversion is more useful to Bard and Machinist.

[HyoMinPark]

It's also their job to avoid death. So don't blame yourself for it. Just say it's not up yet and keep playing the game. You're beating youeself for other player's mistakes too much. I've been on the melee side of this comparison as RDM on the MP concern. It sucks but I know it was my fault at the end. If they're blaming you for it they are just being really silly.

I responded to this is my last post, but the forum deleted half of it when I went in to fix a typo, so I’ll just post the response again.

I don’t blame myself when they die. But I’m supposed to be able to provide them support in the event that they do. I can’t do that if I’m having to use Tactician or Refresh to save my own skin.

I just think they should consider a rework. Remove the dumps from Tactician and Refresh, allow them to be used as actual support skills as opposed to enmity dumps for the BRD/MCH carrying them, and allow BRD/MCH to take Diversion, which will benefit them more during an opener, a Minuet+RS phase, or a Wildfire. A queller is far more practical for them than a dump, because they have to basically rip hate or be on the brink of it in order for the dump to be effective. All other DPS jobs use Diversion in their opener, but BRD/MCH have no such option, which is usually why you see them right on the brink of ripping hate from even a good tank.


There have been numerous times I’ve seen a BRD/MCH rip off of a tank (good tanks and unsuspecting ones, because I really feel like people underestimate just how much power is in a good BRD’s/MCH’s opener), and promptly get smacked by the boss. And they can’t do anything about it. By the time they hit Tactician, well, they’re usually one-hit KO’d or fairly close to it. And, if you’re progging, well, you just really have to hope that no one needs TP (or MP if you hit Refresh) in the next 3 minutes. Removing the dumps from those two skills and giving them Diversion solves each of those issues.

[Shurrikhan]

Yeah but does all other jobs have access to two skills to cut their enmity in a half? This comparison is bad and it's deffinetively not needed.

It's precisely because the comparison is bad that it shouldn't be necessary. And yet it is. A tank will necessarily struggle to hold hate against a Bard bursting up to 8k even as other DPS bursting over 10k are barely visible on the enmity bars, all so that, as soon as the Bard does rip hate, their enmity is reduced to such a low amount that it'll be several minutes before they'll need a single enmity skill against the same enemy, despite then ripping every add, too. None of that is smooth.

An retroactive enmity dump is no replacement for a present enmity reduction.

And as for the ridiculous, let's note this at least: Diversion, when identical in effect but known simply as Quelling Strikes instead, was a Bard/Archer skill, and even then barely reeled in Bard burst sufficiently.

[Kurando]

If you’re a caster not making use of both Diversion and Lucid, then you aren’t playing correctly. I’ve seen BLMs use both, even though Lucid is worthless to them in terms of MP regeneration. RDMs use both. SMNs use both. Sure, they can live without one or the other, but they have access to both. And good casters use both. If you aren’t, then you aren’t playing well.

First and foremost, most optimal Caster guides suggest both, though put more emphasis on at least having one. Second, casters generate much higher sustained enmity than ranged whereas the latter only needs aggro cuts in their opener. Basically, it boils down to Diversion is more useful to Bard and Machinist.

I disagree with the first point HyoMin as Bourne had it more on point of the situation with casters. It's easy to assume someone mustn't be playing their job well if they don't have BOTH aggro actions but things are never so black and white. There are some great players out there that can get through content without using either and be on point but doesn't mean they are doing anything wrong though if they are still getting the same result as someone who does use them. Lucid is generally the go-to for SMN/RDM and Diversion BLM (seeing as the latter doesn't need Refresh). It's also very situational and cross roles mean you can't make room for everything so really depends on the content and how you prefer to play.

I'm the end Diversion used to be Quelling and was accessable to BRD/MCH and although things have changed since HW, the need for them still brings more perks than negatives. Tactician/Refresh effects too many players to be used selfishly compared to Lucid.

[KDSilver]

Yeah but does all other jobs have access to two skills to cut their enmity in a half? This comparison is bad and it's deffinetively not needed.

Actually... most of them, yes...
Caster have Diversion(reduce by 90%) and Lucid Dreaming (half enmity)
Dragoon has Diversion (reduce by 90%) and Elusive Jump (half enmity)
Ninja has Diversion, Smokescreen (to reduce someone else enmity) and Silhouette to give its aggro to the tank.

Only Monk and Samurai only have access to diversion, but other dps do have a second or a third way to deal with that.

But for caster, since they have diversion, they don't need to burn their mana refresh to dump their aggro.
And when they'll need that mana refresh, the aggro dump is an extra.

In the end, none of them has to "waste" such ressources for aggro.

Please get some info before saying things.

[ruskie]

Quelling strikes rarely worked as good as just having my enmity cut in half does now. So no I don't want to give up an enmity dump for something that doesn't work as well.

[Sethani]

As a main mch, I don't feel like I need a diversion. Yes when my opener wlidfire explode I'll be second with ennemity. Let's proc tacticien, others aren't supposed to die.
On refresh, I still don't care about this, I proc this after second wlidfire no matter what. And then I'll repeat it as an enemity cut after each WF. Meaning it's on precise timer so heals adapts their mana reg. Stop thinking those are support skills and have to be held. Using them to lower your enemity will also give the bonus to your mates so they'll proc their regen later.
Diversion is nice, I still don't need one more oGCD when preparing my burst.