Would Bards and Machinists make good use of Diversion?

[zuzu-bq]

They've two abilities to cut their enmity in half. Its easy to teach a new player to not pull aggro in order to survive but it's harder to teach them how providing others TP and MP is important. SE did a great job merging those things and Diversion would not only be unecessary but break this small detail of the role skills.

As said before in this thread, yes the main reason for the skills are to provide resources, but doing so you're dealing with your threat at the same time. A player that don't understand the resource management of others will provide it to them by caring about theit enmity. So the way those two skills are is entirely fine.

[HyoMinPark]

They've two abilities to cut their enmity in half. Its easy to teach a new player to not pull aggro in order to survive but it's harder to teach them how providing others TP and MP is important. SE did a great job merging those things and Diversion would not only be unecessary but break this small detail of the role skills.

As said before in this thread, yes the main reason for the skills are to provide resources, but doing so you're dealing with your threat at the same time. A player that don't understand the resource management of others will provide it to them by caring about theit enmity. So the way those two skills are is entirely fine.

Asking for Diversion is not game-breaking for either of the jobs, though. It’s giving them an enmity queller all other DPS jobs have access to. Considering BRD/MCH still have some of the strongest burst in the game during their openers, it’s definitely needed.

The majority of the time, a good BRD or MCH is riding a tank for aggro immediately after their opener because they have nothing to quell their burst. Blowing a support skill and putting it on CD for the next three minutes can be problematic when you are progging fights. What if people die? What if the healers Raise a lot, and need MP? What if they die after using Lucid Dreaming and need MP? What if the DPS die, and they either haven’t taken Invigorate, or used it before and it’s still on CD? What if the melee don’t have Goad, or have already used it on someone? And PLDs and DRKs have no option for TP regen when they die, unlike WAR, who can use Equilibrium in Deliverance at least.

When content is on farm, and people aren’t dying, it isn’t that big of a deal when you use them, because you won’t need Tactician for TP regen (Refresh is still needed not only for healer’s MP, but to extend Foe’s Requiem, because it’s more practical to extend it rather than cast it more because the BRD sacrifices a GCD each cast). But for prog, the idea behind Tactician and Refresh is to provide TP/MP regen and support through multiple deaths in order for a group to progress/make it to enrage/clear, not for the BRD or MCH to manage their own hate because the developers couldn’t be bothered to give them a queller like every other DPS job has.

[zuzu-bq]

Asking for Diversion is not game-breaking for either of the jobs, though. It’s giving them an enmity queller all other DPS jobs have access to. Considering BRD/MCH still have some of the strongest burst in the game during their openers, it’s definitely needed.

Yeah but does all other jobs have access to two skills to cut their enmity in a half? This comparison is bad and it's deffinetively not needed.

[HyoMinPark]

Yeah but does all other jobs have access to two skills to cut their enmity in a half? This comparison is bad and it's deffinetively not needed.

All other jobs have access to Diversion, and casters have Diversion AND Lucid—one queller and one dump. BRD/MCH has no queller. Enmity quellers and enmity dumps act completely different from one another.

In order for aggro to be dumped, you have to build it first. When you’re quelling enmity, you’re quelling how much builds up. BRD and MCH can manage 9 to 10k bursts in their openers. A queller would benefit them far more than a dump. They could remove the enmity dump aspect from Refresh and Tactician entirely if they wanted to give ranged physical DPS Diversion. I’d prefer that, to be honest.

[zuzu-bq]

All other jobs have access to Diversion, and casters have Diversion AND Lucid—one queller and one dump. BRD/MCH has no queller. Enmity quellers and enmity dumps act completely different from one another.

In order for aggro to be dumped, you have to build it first. When you’re quelling enmity, you’re quelling how much builds up. BRD and MCH can manage 9 to 10k bursts in their openers. A queller would benefit them far more than a dump.

You don't get it. By your logic you'll be adding a third enmity ability to Physical Rangeds making them the only role with 3 abilities for it. So far the only DPS with that is NIN because it's part of their support toolset. Also by your reasoning of "they're one of the burstiest" Warriors should also have diversion. And that ain't happening. Casters have those two Skills and only one of them use both. RDM actually would be able to live without Lucid if their rotation wasn't MP negative without it. SMN rarely ever needs enmity control and BLM can easily live without Diversion.

Also you're underestimating the power of literally cutting your enmity in half. WHM and AST are jobs that generate ridiculous amounts of enmity if they so desire and they only have one, meanwhile BRD and MCH have two. If you're having problems with enmity either your tanks are slacking or you are. What it's needed in this situation isn't a new crutch. It's playing better.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You don't get it.

Actually, you don't. Only Bard and Machinist need to waste a resource to dump their enmity. Lucid will almost never be used when any of the casters are anywhere close to full MP, thus it provides a secondary benefit. In the event say, Red Mage or Black Mage misused Lucid, well, only they suffer. If people have died but the Bard already burned Tactician to half their enmity, better hope for downtime otherwise no TP.

Regardless, Diversion is simply better. Bard and Machinist have exceedingly high aggro burst yet low sustain. Diversion, meanwhile, reduces all aggro generated by 90% for 30 seconds; effectively covering their entire opener. In fact, let's apply some rough math. An optimal Bard burst is approximately 10,000. Tactician reduces that to 5,000 every three minutes. Diversion reduces it 1,000 as it negates 90% of how much aggro is generated. And you have it every two minutes. I wager most Ranged would happily trade the aggro perks of Tactician and Refresh for Diversion.

[Dualgunner]

WAR is a tank, why would they ever need an aggro dampener or dump? Actually scratch that, WAR does have an aggro dump: Shirk, which becomes more useful to MT the more enmity they generated in the first place, so again diversion would be counter-intuitive. Compare to BRD/MCH's burst: nobody benefits from them nearly overtaking the tank every single pull. It means instead of smokescreening a WHM or an AST, the BRD or MCH needs to be smokescreened instead.

Sure, that can also be argued to be the point of Ninja. But for jobs whose entire point is party support, why is so much of their aggro dampening and damage outsourced to other party members? And as has been said by many people, burning one of the aggro dumps selfishly has potential to harm the whole party.

"Playing better" is also the answer to nearly anything to be honest.

[zuzu-bq]

In the event say, Red Mage or Black Mage misused Lucid, well, only they suffer. If people have died but the Bard already burned Tactician to half their enmity, better hope for downtime otherwise no TP.

And that's why Invigorate still exists. Although you're not entirely wrong, outside of that saying the melee is being punished by dying past Tactician is bad well, yes it is. But again they died, if death had no punishment in the game no one would care about dying. There has to be punishments to deaths to incentivise players on avoiding it.

Regardless, Diversion is simply better.

If Diversion would simply be better you wouldn't see BLMs running without it. Which they do, constantly. The example your provided only shows someone didn't slot Invigorate in a run with possibility of death and got hurt because of it. If you're progressing a fight or expect deaths to happen you should slot the skills to play around it.

WAR is a tank, why would they ever need an aggro dampener or dump? Actually scratch that, WAR does have an aggro dump: Shirk, which becomes more useful to MT the more enmity they generated in the first place, so again diversion would be counter-intuitive. Compare to BRD/MCH's burst: nobody benefits from them nearly overtaking the tank every single pull. It means instead of smokescreening a WHM or an AST, the BRD or MCH needs to be smokescreened instead.

Yes it's silly to think WAR should have it. I only stated that to show how Diversion isn't a need for only because your burst is high. Because WAR also falls on that category while having less aggro dumps.

[HyoMinPark]

You don't get it. By your logic you'll be adding a third enmity ability to Physical Rangeds making them the only role with 3 abilities for it.

I said they could remove the enmity dumps from Refresh and Tactician if they wanted to give physical ranged Diversion. Please read my post again. A queller would be far more welcome than a dump because BRD/MCH generate all their enmity within the first 30 seconds of a given fight during their opening burst.

So far the only DPS with that is NIN because it's part of their support toolset.

You’re wrong here. NINs can’t use Smokescreen on themselves. Shadewalker doesn’t quell their enmity, but instead gives it to a target. That’s not the same as quelling it or reducing it by half. They have access to Diversion, but they don’t have any other queller or dump outside of that.

Also by your reasoning of "they're one of the burstiest"

It’s a solid reasoning because it’s true. The only other jobs that have 9~10k bursts are the casters...which also have access to Diversion AND Lucid Dreaming.

Warriors should also have diversion.

WAR is a tank, and with the 4.2 changes, they would always be MT anyways, because they can Defiance > Unchained > switch to Deliverance and lose nothing. They’re supposed to be generating aggro.

Casters have those two Skills and only one of them use both. RDM actually would be able to live without Lucid if their rotation wasn't MP negative without it. SMN rarely ever needs enmity control and BLM can easily live without Diversion.

If you’re a caster not making use of both Diversion and Lucid, then you aren’t playing correctly. I’ve seen BLMs use both, even though Lucid is worthless to them in terms of MP regeneration. RDMs use both. SMNs use both. Sure, they can live without one or the other, but they have access to both. And good casters use both. If you aren’t, then you aren’t playing well.

Also you're underestimating the power of literally cutting your enmity in half. WHM and AST are jobs that generate ridiculous amounts of enmity if they so desire and they only have one, meanwhile BRD and MCH have two. If you're having problems with enmity either your tanks are slacking or you are. What it's needed in this situation isn't a new crutch. It's playing better.

Okay, first: it’s really hard for an AST to generate a lot of aggro by healing—even when they are overhealing. Their sects have built-in enmity reduction. WHM is different because it’s healing is monstrous, and if they have a high overheal, overheal build aggro at twice the rate that non-overheals. But the difference between a WHM and a BRD is that a WHM is generating aggro throughout an entire fight with their healing, and especially if they are overhealing (which it’s nigh impossible to not have an overheal on WHM, and again, overheal generates double the enmity of non-overheal). A BRD generates the majority their aggro at once in their opening burst, and then not that much during their sustain.

It’s not a “playing better” situation. It’s the fact that BRD/MCH have to actually build enough hate to rip off of a tank to use Tactician/Refresh and it be effective as an aggro dump, which their primary function is party support anyways. A queller would be far more desired by both during openers as opposed to a dump.

And that's why Invigorate still exists.

And what about when you’re progging, a melee gets hit by something, dies, accepts Raise > Invigorate...but then die again before Invigorate is back off of CD? Then it’s up to the BRD/MCH with Tactician to provide them TP... but they can’t if they are forced to use it after their opener to dump their aggro. Same thing with Refresh: healer used Lucid for MP regen (or for WHM in V4S, aggro dump if you didn’t have a PLD to Cover them for Aero III), dies, is raised... but now has no MP. BRD/MCH should be able to provide them with MP....but if they’ve had to Refresh to dump their aggro, well, they can’t.

If Diversion would simply be better you wouldn't see BLMs running without it. Which they do, constantly. The example your provided only shows someone didn't slot Invigorate in a run with possibility of death and got hurt because of it. If you're progressing a fight or expect deaths to happen you should slot the skills to play around it.

Diversion is still better. It reduces your enmity generation by 90%, where Tactician/Refresh only dumps it in half.

Take a 9k burst from a BRD’s opener:
> with Tactician that dumps it to 4.5k in terms of aggro, since aggro generation for BRD is x1.0 for each skill (50%)
> with Diversion, that quells it to 900 (90%)

Yes it's silly to think WAR should have it. I only stated that to show how Diversion isn't a need for only because your burst is high. Because WAR also falls on that category while having less aggro dumps.

You can’t attempt to make my argument “look silly” by making silly arguments as counters. That’s not how debating works.



Tanks don’t seem to realize how bursty BRD/MCH really is; well, people in general don’t seem to realize how bursty they are. The amount of times I have seen BRDs or MCHs rip off of tanks in the middle of their openers... if they had an enmity queller, that wouldn’t be a problem.

[Dualgunner]

Yes it's silly to think WAR should have it. I only stated that to show how Diversion isn't a need for only because your burst is high. Because WAR also falls on that category while having less aggro dumps.

But again...WAR is a tank, and it's supposed to be generating aggro. Unless you're insinuating that Bard and Machinist are tanks?

To swap it around, a tank's job is aggro generation and manipulation; a dps's is obviously dps. A tank with diversion would be like a dps with an ability that drops their damage output.