Samurai and Red Mage

[Shurrikhan]

Without the honestly... combative language that Kabooa used, I'd like to draw attention to the potential issue of rDPS and pDPS, and why BLM is KIIIIINDA starting to improve in the right direction.

A major issue with the pure DPS jobs, is that compared to other jobs, their personalDPS is simply not equivalent to the raidDPS of most other DPSes.

http://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encount...pjVCnkGBwKH/10

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. BLM's massive 7500~ pDPS in this party could not have been obtained on its own, and as a result, its actual rDPS contribution is much smaller than the other jobs. And mind you, this is a BLM at (as far as I'm aware) 100 percentile.

Umm... what? 6546 is smaller than 6248, 6129, and 5497 now?
Even with every single bit of damage offered it from others taken back out, the BLM still contributed more DPS in total than any other job in there.

Again, this is a 100 percentile BLM vs a group of those who are all 80-99. with a wide range of values between them.

A better comparison is this one, with each of the players at the same level, though the BLM is a mere 2 percentile below. http://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/encount...pFqzgXxtJrb/13[/B]

A "mere" 2%? That means absolutely nothing.

98% is not 98% of the lead parse. It is simply ahead of 98% of parses published within that job.

Just consider, if all but one player of a given class were !@#$, then the difference between 100% and 99% in that class could be 6k.

The surrounding players in the lead parse literally have no means of providing extra DPS to the BLM at so great a cost to their own that this could have been a conscious sacrifice of their percentiles, to a detriment in rDPS in order to pad the BLM's through the way the fight was executed. None of the buffs' durations involved pan out advantageously enough, or at enough cost to the activator, to do that. Save for perhaps the faintest portion, the 1st BLM just knew his stuff that much better atop probably never getting picked for the quake-chase mechanic (or else having the boss set such that he could TC, BtL, and AM through each).

The first group has an especially skilled BLM compared to the other players in that party and played around it knowing that had the BLM instead gone with something interdependent -- even if just as skilled in the other class -- their rDPS would have suffered for it.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Umm... what? 6546 is smaller than 6248, 6129, and 5497 now?
Even with every single bit of damage offered it from others taken back out, the BLM still contributed more DPS in total than any other job in there.

The other person then said 300 wasn't enough since the blm was 100th % while some of the other dps were 81-90.

[Kabooa]

The surrounding players in the lead parse literally have no means of providing extra DPS to the BLM at so great a cost of their own. None of the buffs' durations involved pan out advantageously enough, or at enough cost to the activator, to do that. Save for perhaps the faintest portion, the 1st BLM just knew his stuff that much better atop probably never getting picked for the quake-chase mechanic (or else having the boss set such that he could TC, BtL, and AM through each)..

The 7500 Black Mage was fed every single target buff. The difference in their activity is .2%. The Black Mage at 6300 used scathe exactly once, so something forced disadvantageous movement, and possibly cost a AF phase. I don't really want to go that deep into the analysis. The most absurd difference is that 7500 Mage got 15 additional Fire 4s off, part of being that the 7500 Black mage is in a longer encounter (by about 20 seconds, so one rotation or 5-6 Fire 4s), so in the same duration, they got 9-10 more Fire 4s, on average hitting harder, than the other Black Mage.

7500: Total GCDs - 200
Other: Total GCDs - 179

Adjusting for the 21 second difference (Which could be a full fire phase so 7 GCDs): Approximately 193 GCDs vs 179. It's almost like they had a constant +10-15% spellspeed from single target Arrows. The damage difference could be gear, but given that 7500 got Dragon Eye, I'm going to go ahead and say the difference is probably being fed yet more single target buffs.

[Shurrikhan]

The 7500 Black Mage was fed every single target buff. The difference in their activity is .2%. The Black Mage at 6300 used scathe exactly once, so something forced disadvantageous movement, and possibly cost a AF phase. I don't really want to go that deep into the analysis. The most absurd difference is that 7500 Mage got 15 additional Fire 4s off, part of being that the 7500 Black mage is in a longer encounter (by about 20 seconds, so one rotation or 5-6 Fire 4s), so in the same duration, they got 9-10 more Fire 4s, on average hitting harder, than the other Black Mage.

7500: Total GCDs - 200
Other: Total GCDs - 179

Adjusting for the 21 second difference (Which could be a full fire phase so 7 GCDs): Approximately 193 GCDs vs 179. It's almost like they had a constant +10-15% spellspeed from single target Arrows. The damage difference could be gear, but given that 7500 got Dragon Eye, I'm going to go ahead and say the difference is probably being fed yet more single target buffs.

But let's consider also: +10% Attack Speed onto a 6900 parse for 30s takes 1 Card to accomplish and accomplishes ~690 DPS (more if allowing for a Fire-less string through Transpose rotation every other burn); +5% raid-wide Attack Speed (38,516) consumes 2 Cards and where only a couple classes can make that attack speed act nearly as strongly as a damage bonus. That's still more than a double benefit, but at twice the card price that benefit shrinks rapidly.

Yes, the 7500 is padded towards the BLM. But there's no way by the cards alone would likely force the others back that far in DPS, and that's the only resource for which any real choice was available. This could somehow be a cheeky run where only the BLM parse was especially of import (rather than the Dragoon DYING, and gradual chain reactions that pulled others down to a miserable 96th and 91st percentile as well), and that lead could have shrunk or even fallen slightly behind a different first place otherwise, but it'd still be a strongly, strongly viable choice in the right hands even if not fed.

As I said, there's a fair amount of this I just don't want to bother going further into. The 7400 is not just padded, but padded heavily. Very heavily. It is something to look at for fun, but doesn't at all reflect the strength of the job, because every ounce of that came at a cost. It is certainly primarily for the Black Mage to hit that stupid number. That's part of the fun of the content after you clear and farm gear. To do stupid stuff like that (Like the 8 warrior Ravana at 60 party)

But from an objective standpoint it's terrible practice, because you're going to get more damage by removing the Black Mage, replacing it with anything else of a similar player caliber (Except maybe Red Mage), and proceed to uberbuff everyone in the raid, not just one person, and that is why the Selfish DPS paradigm currently is awful, and so far SE's only answer is to constantly raise the floor so that the average Black Mage looks better in comparison to the average anything else.

7400? Weren't we talking about the Alsa Rien 7500 BLM parse? The only one below a 91st percentile is the DRG who spent 20 seconds DEAD. The other you brought in for discussion as a counterpoint.

The padding may be bad practice, but that's a fault of, as you said, going for a personal DPS parse, not with BLM itself. And it's a far call from being worthless even then. It's only 40 seconds off from the speed record, made weeks later. And note: that one doesn't have deaths.

Heck, the 2nd biggest padded parse (Ynd Tmb's 7569 on Monk) is also only 9 seconds away from the speed record for its fight (a mere 1.6% slower).

[Kabooa]

But let's consider also:.

As I said, there's a fair amount of this I just don't want to bother going further into. The 7400 is not just padded, but padded heavily. Very heavily. It is something to look at for fun, but doesn't at all reflect the strength of the job, because every ounce of that came at a cost. It is certainly primarily for the Black Mage to hit that stupid number. That's part of the fun of the content after you clear and farm gear. To do stupid stuff like that (Like the 8 warrior Ravana at 60 party)

But from an objective standpoint it's terrible practice, because you're going to get more damage by removing the Black Mage, replacing it with anything else of a similar player caliber (Except maybe Red Mage), and proceed to uberbuff everyone in the raid, not just one person, and that is why the Selfish DPS paradigm currently is awful, and so far SE's only answer is to constantly raise the floor so that the average Black Mage looks better in comparison to the average anything else.

[Claire_Pendragon]

We all agree enough "utility" makes up for pDPS with rDPS, but the argument now is if BLM is given enough pDPS to make up for it, to which its arguably close, to the point that almost no group would turn down a BLM.
So honestly, imo, they did good with BLM, but increasing SAMs DPS is actually as much an rDPS loss as it is a pDPS increase, with tanks needing to use more threat to keep up with its pDPS increase.
Back at the release of the current savage, our WAR did 4k DPS, with a PLD doing 3k DPS, voke shirking the WAR. The SAM was doing 5.2k (wasnt fully geared yet) and the WAR always lost hate to him at some point when a tank buster went out. Be it early or later. The SAM was using diversion the moment it was up, so the issue lies in that SAM currently just cant do much more DPS w/o a NIN to help with threat. SAM needs a threat dump, or another tank needs a way to lower PT members threat (Personally i say give it to DRK)

a SAM cant be doing 7k DPS w/o tanking. even with voke/shirk combos, and diversion on CD. (need a NIN as a requirement, only hurting the problem more)

[Kabooa]

Heck, the 2nd biggest padded parse (Ynd Tmb's 7569 on Monk) is also only 9 seconds away from the speed record for its fight (a mere 1.6% slower).

And the Monk brings Mantra and Brotherhood. Certainly not a raid supporter, but that's more than a black mage, and to be honest, it's not even that stacked for the Monk. A healthier amount of AoE cards went out here, and though they got fed some single cards, it isn't nearly as dumb as it is over in the Black mage.

Honestly, it's even looking like the only single card they got were Spears and potentially a balance or two.

So the Monk, a DPS class bringing both unique attack and defense boosts, with less catering to it, is not only keeping up with the Black Mage, but one that was heavily fed single cards.

[Shurrikhan]

We all agree enough "utility" makes up for pDPS with rDPS, but the argument now is if BLM is given enough pDPS to make up for it, to which its arguably close, to the point that almost no group would turn down a BLM.
So honestly, imo, they did good with BLM, but increasing SAMs DPS is actually as much an rDPS loss as it is a pDPS increase, with tanks needing to use more threat to keep up with its pDPS increase.
Back at the release of the current savage, our WAR did 4k DPS, with a PLD doing 3k DPS, voke shirking the WAR. The SAM was doing 5.2k (wasnt fully geared yet) and the WAR always lost hate to him at some point when a tank buster went out. Be it early or later. The SAM was using diversion the moment it was up, so the issue lies in that SAM currently just cant do much more DPS w/o a NIN to help with threat. SAM needs a threat dump, or another tank needs a way to lower PT members threat (Personally i say give it to DRK)

a SAM cant be doing 7k DPS w/o tanking. even with voke/shirk combos, and diversion on CD. (need a NIN as a requirement, only hurting the problem more)

This is indeed a core Monk/Samurai issue at the moment, as they alone lack a second enmity tool, be it the purges of Elusive or Lucid or the (effectively) 200% enmity reduction of Shadewalker. The question is whether, if MCH, SAM, and RDM were brought up to comparable levels and MCH, if NIN -- having no more or less rDPS than the others and lacking Verraise, Refresh, Palisade, and Tactician -- would still really have a spot well available (not guaranteed, but merely available) to it.

A Ranged doesn't quite require a Dragoon. Thus I would hope that a Monk or Samurai would not need a Ninja to be played to an acceptable potential. However, if, say, each had DPS-sacrificing tools that could be rDPS equal in the long run, which NIN could remove from necessity and therefore granting them the rDPS gap as if free, that seems like an interesting mechanical match-up.

For example, let's say Purification was buffed.
Purification - 1-minute cooldown. Restores 20% of HP and TP while reducing a significant amount of enmity.

This actual amount would be equal to "3000 raw potency" (non-buffable by mitigation tools), in exchange for dealing 250 buffable potency (essentially up to 440 potency). Assuming that a Monk's time or potency gaps, say, 50% more useful or significant than a tank's, this would still eventually amount to a rDPS increase.

But that also means that over a given fight, a Ninja could afford the Monk 390n to 440n more potency.

There's nothing quite so obviously applicable for Samurai at the moment, but imagine something to similar effect for it. Or, alternatively, play upon that selfish DPS aspect as its enmity generation. Cause Yaten to distribute a portion of Samurai's enmity against the target based all other percentile contributors. If the (former) MT holds 40% of the remainder of all enmity against the target, then he gets 40% of Samurai's 20% as distributed by Yaten. A Ninja would further pronounce those benefits, but they'd still be sufficient without him.

And the Monk brings Mantra and Brotherhood. Certainly not a raid supporter, but that's more than a black mage, and to be honest, it's not even that stacked for the Monk. A healthier amount of AoE cards went out here, and though they got fed some single cards, it isn't nearly as dumb as it is over in the Black mage.

Honestly, it's even looking like the only single card they got were Spears and potentially a balance or two.

So the Monk, a DPS class bringing both unique attack and defense boosts, with less catering to it, is not only keeping up with the Black Mage, but one that was heavily fed single cards.

Right. Which is why I, even though maining Monk/Samurai (well, solely Monk at this point, as its damage is higher even for me and with Brotherhood atop that), am under the impression that certain Monk builds (and therefore the class's potential as a whole) may be unintendedly (overly) powerful, and have suggested the removal of the Brotherhood damage buff to Monk itself, though in exchange for broader applicability across compositions of Chakra generation. I just still need to work out the potential gains in TFC casts by removing its cooldown vs. the 5% on all oGCD skills including the (fewer) TFC casts currently possible. Heck, if I use the above Purification idea, I wouldn't really even need to do that, so long as I reduce Purification to a similar CD. TP would wholly stop being a thing for Monk, but that was practically the case anyways.

[Dralonis]

i still personally think slashing/piercing/blunt should just be taken out of the game like element resistance. would help against the whole meta thing slightly because it really doesn't add anything besides people picking and choosing for synergy in that way. Get rid of that, and they will have to buff some classes in 5.0.

[Shurrikhan]

i still personally think slashing/piercing/blunt should just be taken out of the game like element resistance. would help against the whole meta thing slightly because it really doesn't add anything besides people picking and choosing for synergy in that way. Get rid of that, and they will have to buff some classes in 5.0.

I wouldn't be surprised if only the potential redundancies (e.g. Slashing, and Piercing only if there are equally plentiful other sources and users) are left, going into 5.0 or 6.0. But, I'd wager that one could find a way to balance around it. The issue is that at least one readily available alternative to the given damage advantage (as per Piercing onto a Ranged) also has to give damage, since only damage will be universally useful; all else is a capped utility -- their equivalence to actual throughput depends on very specific interactions or on the power of one's enemies, which will not scale with gear, invaluable for particular benchmarks afforded them, but not at all as soon as that benchmark has been met.

It'd be like being able to take 6% Piercing as applicable to Ranged, but only if at cost to the 5% that the Ranged can give to casters, specifically, which was in turn afforded by something else.