This whole Meta Party thing is hurting me. x_x

[Neela]

Development metrics, internal numbers, more thorough understanding of how skills and abilities interact with each other, better testing environments—all this, combined with far more logs than any player has seen, gives the developers a much higher quality of data.

I fear you are misreading Yoshida. When he says that 'there are no major advantages or disadvantages to any setup,' the suggestion is very clear: the perceived advantages and disadvantages of the "meta" are not as profound as players make them out to be. So why? The higher quality of data the developers are privy to suggest this, which is why he said what he said.

So why does it need the playerbase to find all those opportunities like the 100% egi/fairy buff uptime thing in HW, the one hit TA back at the primal or the latest Ninja rotation which „wasn’t intended to be like this“ (and many more examples) if devs knowledge and testing is beyond all doubts? Everytime a skill is changed in its mechanic its just another proof that the player base found a usage of that skill the devs haven't even thought about... how does this fact fit your opinion?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

This is a really bad case of putting words in my mouth. My claim (which really isn't a claim, as it is a fact): the developers have a higher quality of data than the players do. Ergo, when objective data analysis is done, I (and everyone else, quite frankly) should put far, far more weight into the developers claims (since) they are working from a higher quality of data.

Development metrics, internal numbers, more thorough understanding of how skills and abilities interact with each other, better testing environments—all this, combined with far more logs than any player has seen, gives the developers a much higher quality of data.

I have done no such thing. If the developers have data we aren't privy to that demonstrably disapproves the meta, in-game battle logs are relaying inaccurate information. Regardless, we know your statement false because the developers have on, numerous occasions, been outsmarted by the playerbase. They never anticipated players who precast Huton or blow Infuriate/Raw Intuition and delay pulling. For an entire expansion they insisted Paladins were fine yet caved come Stormblood.

They don't actually have a better understanding. None of the dev team plays at even a remotely comparable level to World First raiders. This is true of virtually every game due to time constraints. A primary reason many games employ test servers is for this very reason.

I fear you are misreading Yoshida. When he says that 'there are no major advantages or disadvantages to any setup,' the suggestion is very clear: the perceived advantages and disadvantages of the "meta" are not as profound as players make them out to be. So why? The higher quality of data the developers are privy to suggest this, which is why he said what he said.

Operative word being "major." Perception is key here. The devs do not necessarily see Bard missing out of Battle Litany or Disembowel as a "major disadvantage" because their only concern is can every job clear the content. Yoshida's statement is both casual minded and intended to stop people locking out certain jobs. It's a PR response and little else. It has absolutely nothing to do with "higher quality data" or whatever other nebulous term. I mean, consider the alternative. Paying customers wouldn't exactly be pleased to hear the Producer say, "Yeah, no. Samurai is useless. Play Dragoon/Ninja," if they enjoyed the former.

Put simply, the devs aren't looking at FFlogs but simply viability. They couldn't care less if you clear seconds before enrage with the bare minimal amount of DPS or three minutes ahead. Both groups cleared, which is all they care about.

[Eli85]

So why does it need the playerbase to find all those opportunities like the 100% egi/fairy buff uptime thing in HW, the one hit TA back at the primal or the latest Ninja rotation which „wasn’t intended to be like this“ (and many more examples) if devs knowledge and testing is beyond all doubts? Everytime a skill is changed in its mechanic its just another proof that the player base found a usage of that skill the devs haven't even thought about... how does this fact fit your opinion?

This is a misread of my posts. I have never said that the devs knowledge and testing is beyond all doubts. I have simply said that they have far more data (in volume) and far more complete data than players have. Further, when both sides do objective data analysis, we should put more weight into the opinions of the party who has more data and more complete data.

I have done no such thing. If the developers have data we aren't privy that demonstrably disapproves the meta, in-game battle logs are relaying inaccurate information. Regardless, we know your statement false because the developers have on, numerous occasions, been outsmarted by the playerbase. They never anticipated players who precast Huton or blow Infuriate/Raw Intuition and delay pulling. For an entire expansion they insisted Paladin were fine yet caved come Stormblood.

The developers having more complete information does not make player battle logs false. You are free to draw your own conclusions about what the battle log is telling you, but objectively speaking, whoever has the more fuller, complete information when performing objective data analysis should be weighted far more.

They don't actually have a better understanding. None of the dev team players at even a remotely comparable level to World First raiders. This is true of virtually every game due to time constraints. A primary reason many games employ test servers is for this very reason.

They do, actually. When you create something—anything, it doesn't matter what—you have a far greater understanding of it than anyone else, because you understand how it is constructed to the most minute details. Also, in the case of game development, metrics, internal testing, simulations and what not gives them enough data to make up for them not being "world first raiders." Note: I am not agreeing that they aren't comparable to world first raiders, but I'm giving you that for the sake of argument.

Operative word being "major." Perception is key here. The devs do not necessarily see Bard missing out of Battle Litany on Disembowel as a "major disadvantage" because their only concern is can every job clear the content. Yoshida's statement is both casual minded and intended to stop being locking out certain jobs. It's a PR response and little else. It has absolutely nothing to do with "higher quality data" or whatever other nebulous term. I mean, consider the alternative. Paying customers wouldn't exactly be pleased to hear the Producer say, "Yeah, no. Samurai is useless. Play Dragoon/Ninja," if they enjoyed the former.

Yes, perception is key, but not in the way that you are using it. When he says there is no major advantage, he is acknowledging there may be some slight edge or what not do this mythical meta concept, but not to the point where it makes any real difference.

What you (and others) need to understand is that developers (the producer, in particular) does not offer opinions on the game because he fancies them. He offers an opinion based on game metrics. Every development studio does this, and S-E is no different. The opinions are based entirely in objective data.

[KuroShinra]

I'm tired of swapping to another job only for that job to be deemed worthless in the eyes of the community and end up being excluded from potential play. I'm tired of swapping jobs and ending up being mediocre in them all because I haven't dedicated myself to focusing on one and learning it fully. I just want to be able to enjoy the game with people and have fun learning and mastering a singular job instead of constantly gimping myself. I just don't know what to do anymore. x_x

Just stick to the class you like. Surely, all class is not equal but you just need to be good in your class. Let say you are rdm that can do 6000dps. No one will care that you are rdm or not.

edit
one other thing that might be done. Relocate to jp datacenter(Tonberry should have the highest eng player base).
I almost never see pt that doesn't want a certain job unless most classes are filled(sure they don't want 2 sch or no mch/brd).


Ps. Maybe find fc that have fun play/progress dungeon.

[gumas]

^this, sure some class is bad compare to others but, they all are still in the margin of "you can do it with this class" state, instead of great success or excellent you just end up with good or ok impression.

i've seen a guild party did an endgame stuff with only RDM as their dps (i think its from reddit), granted its guild party so they have coordination advantage but the point is it can be done.

there is bazillion player in this game, there must be a community where you fit in

dont feel sad/mad with your class, i play it because i like this class not because i will be the best dps if i pick this class. i play this game, not played by this game right?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

The developers having more complete information does not make player battle logs false. You are free to draw your own conclusions about what the battle log is telling you, but objectively speaking, whoever has the more fuller, complete information when performing objective data analysis should be weighted far more.

This is a simple dichotomy. Either the battle logs are accurate or inaccurate. If the developers have information that isn't being relayed to the players, then the current logs lie. You cannot get around that.

They do, actually. When you create something—anything, it doesn't matter what—you have a far greater understanding of it than anyone else, because you understand how it is constructed to the most minute details. Also, in the case of game development, metrics, internal testing, simulations and what not gives them enough data to make up for them not being "world first raiders." Note: I am not agreeing that they aren't comparable to world first raiders, but I'm giving you that for the sake of argument.

Really? Why have developers outright acknowledged high level players are better than they are. Having a vague idea and being capable of executing do not necessarily correlate. In the case of FFXIV, all their testing is done with God Mode on. It was among the primary reason Gordias failed so spectacularly. They balanced individual mechanics with invisibility on but never tested how putting everything together in a normal environment would work.

If they aren't better than World First or even good raiders. They won't know the same intricacies we do. I reiterate, the devs never anticipated people would do prepull shenanigan with Ninja and Warrior hence why Infuriate is now locked behind active combat and Hide refreshes your Mudras. Those changes were in direct response to players figuring out better alternatives. Going further back, Yoshida even admitted he thought tanks tanking outside Defiance/Shield were insane. Yes, the Producer, couldn't fathom why people did that.

Yes, perception is key, but not in the way that you are using it. When he says there is no major advantage, he is acknowledging there may be some slight edge or what not do this mythical meta concept, but not to the point where it makes any real difference.

What you (and others) need to understand is that developers (the producer, in particular) does not offer opinions on the game because he fancies them. He offers an opinion based on game metrics. Every development studio does this, and S-E is no different. The opinions are based entirely in objective data.

No, you need to understand how PR operates. Developers lies, or stretch the truth if we're being generous. You needs look no further than Destiny 2 and some of its insidious tactics of late. In fact, Bungie advertised experience gains that players eventually discovered were being throttled, i.e. intentionally lowered to prevent skilled players from advancing too quickly. When caught, they claimed a bug... then doubled the necessary experience. And we haven't even covered the nonsense EA tries to get away with.

Anywho.

Your entire argument hinges on a simple philosophy: Jobs are all secretly balanced due to "higher quality data" that we are not privy to. If this were true, the developers are idiots for not releasing this information. Why? It destroys the meta. Because until the playerbase has objective, written, proof, they will always fall back on FFLogs and ACT. No one cares what Yoshida claims. They want numbers that can be cross referenced and properly scrutinized. By your insistence, the developers have this information, but won't release it because... reasons? Furthermore, this inherently makes job changes pointless. Why did Black Mage get a fairly high buff? Why is Samurai slated for one? According to you, there is no meta, thus neither job has any reason to see changes. At least to their damage.

Basically, your stance makes the dev team appear as utter fools who possess the tools to destroy a culture they openly dislike ((FFlogs) yet won't, and make job changes to already balanced jobs because... boredom, I guess?

[Shurrikhan]

You're missing my point. Is the average player going to sync up their raid buffs in coordination with another player's buffs so that they stack consistently in a pug group? Probably not. If they don't coordinate like this, the benefit of having a meta comp decreases from when a coordinated group is using it. I didn't say there was no possible advantage for a pug. Secondly, the Blackmage's job is pure damage. Your point is a little unfair, because it assumes that the blackmage player is bad at their job's designated task while the MCH is at least half aware. Suppose the MCH forgets to hypercharge again after the first or second CD.

I've played with many Bards and MCH's who never use any mana/tp raid buffs in 24 mans while the healers casts multiple raises.

That's the thing though. A meta group performs above average not only at the best levels of play, but also at the fairly low levels of play. 24-mans are also hardly an indicator of acceptable Savage progression or even current Extreme content party performance, which is the only place any "meta" holds weight. Even if a Bard may have poor DPS, they can at least press their big blue button when the healer yells at them. It's not like Blunt Arrow, where the yelling could only come too late.

Assuming equal skill between two parties, one meta and one not, the non-meta party will generally only outperform the meta party if their skill is almost all consolidated within one to two key players with highly independent damage. If your Monk, Samurai, or Summoner are far more skilled than the rest of the party, it's worth building around them. Otherwise, at least as far as we know for now (though Monk and BLM are breaking expectations in constant uptime fights and SMN is still performing very well so this may change), the meta will outperform the non-meta across all skill levels. Maybe not by much, but if you were to take enough samples multiple times each over various skill levels, you'd find their average extends too far ahead to merely be statistical noise. It's not as huge a gap as many would report, but it's there.

[MistakeNot]

They do, actually. When you create something—anything, it doesn't matter what—you have a far greater understanding of it than anyone else, because you understand how it is constructed to the most minute details.

That is simply not true, except for a moment just after the creating.
There have been many, many cases throughout history of people making things behave in ways thought impossible by the original creator. This is because they had spent enough time using and analyzing the item in question that they had obtained a far better understanding of its behaviour than the creator ever did.

[Tsilyi]

That is simply not true, except for a moment just after the creating.
There have been many, many cases throughout history of people making things behave in ways thought impossible by the original creator. This is because they had spent enough time using and analyzing the item in question that they had obtained a far better understanding of its behaviour than the creator ever did.

Unfortunately, OP of your quoted post has never seen speedruns or anything. A lot of game developers are so surprised and excited/a little embarrassed to find out how much better the players know their game than they do.

[Eli85]

This is a simple dichotomy. Either the battle logs are accurate or inaccurate. If the developers have information that isn't being relayed to the players, then the current logs lie. You cannot get around that.

Battle logs, from the player perspective are accurate; however the developers have all of the battle logs and can see how combat plays out from a coding level, and, therefore, have a more complete picture of the data.

It's quite easy to get around that.

Really? Why have developers outright acknowledged high level players are better than they are. Having a vague idea and being capable of executing do not necessarily correlate. In the case of FFXIV, all their testing is done with God Mode on. It was among the primary reason Gordias failed so spectacularly. They balanced individual mechanics with invisibility on but never tested how putting everything together in a normal environment would work.

If they aren't better than World First or even good raiders. They won't know the same intricacies we do. I reiterate, the devs never anticipated people would do prepull shenanigan with Ninja and Warrior hence why Infuriate is now locked behind active combat and Hide refreshes your Mudras. Those changes were in direct response to players figuring out better alternatives. Going further back, Yoshida even admitted he thought tanks tanking outside Defiance/Shield were insane. Yes, the Producer, couldn't fathom why people did that.

None of this disproves the notion that the developers (who created the game) have a greater understanding of the game than players do. Players come up with a different tactic than they anticipated in one raid tier; it does not mean that the players now have a greater collective understanding of how the game works.

No, you need to understand how PR operates. Developers lies, or stretch the truth if we're being generous. You needs look no further than Destiny 2 and some of its insidious tactics of late. In fact, Bungie advertised experience gains that players eventually discovered were being throttled, i.e. intentionally lowered to prevent skilled players from advancing too quickly. When caught, they claimed a bug... then doubled the necessary experience. And we haven't even covered the nonsense EA tries to get away with.

We're not talking about Bungie or EA. We're talking about S-E. Yet even still, there are two different kinds of statements: selling the game (this is where lying or stretching the truth) and explaining how an aspect of the game works (this is where Yoshida's comments fall). The developers answered the meta by looking into game data (objective dataset) and gave an opinion based on what they found. This is not a lie or PR. It's forwarding an objective conclusion based on objective datasets.

Your entire argument hinges on a simple philosophy: Jobs are all secretly balanced due to "higher quality data" that we are not privy to. If this were true, the developers are idiots for not releasing this information. Why? It destroys the meta. Because until the playerbase has objective, written, proof, they will always fall back on FFLogs and ACT. No one cares what Yoshida claims. They want numbers that can be cross referenced and properly scrutinized. By your insistence, the developers have this information, but won't release it because... reasons? Furthermore, this inherently makes job changes pointless. Why did Black Mage get a fairly high buff? Why is Samurai slated for one? According to you, there is no meta, thus neither job has any reason to see changes. At least to their damage.

Basically, your stance makes the dev team appear as utter fools who possess the tools to destroy a culture they openly dislike ((FFlogs) yet won't, and make job changes to already balanced jobs because... boredom, I guess?

Why do you think Yoshida said what he said? He wants to make it clear the meta is a fiction. Their data and data analysis supports this. Not sure why the message is so hard to understand.

That is simply not true, except for a moment just after the creating.
There have been many, many cases throughout history of people making things behave in ways thought impossible by the original creator. This is because they had spent enough time using and analyzing the item in question that they had obtained a far better understanding of its behaviour than the creator ever did.

This is factually incorrect. When you create something, you know how the minutiae fit together, how the different element interacts together, you know it better than any fan could ever do. Sure, I'll give you that fans can come up with solid understandings, present something new, but that never, ever replicates a creator's understanding.

Unfortunately, OP of your quoted post has never seen speedruns or anything. A lot of game developers are so surprised and excited/a little embarrassed to find out how much better the players know their game than they do.

I have seen speed runs, the silly and irrelevant concept that it is. But I have seen it. Would you like to tell me what other things you know for a certainty that I haven't seen?