[Spoilers] Is Hydaelyn a primal?

[DeaconMoore]

A primal? I thought Hydaelyn was one of 2 gods that started out as an item and then got into a lovers spat that ended up rending reality itself into several different dimensions that they continue to squabble over.

[Nestama]

The only problem with that example was that even the Scions were willing to let him continue to exist peacefully. We only ended up fighting him because he was wanting to test our mettle and was willing to leave if we could protect the forest if I recall (it was a long time ago in the storyline). But his presence does prove good natured primals exist, and in Stormblood we also have a primal summon themselves with no prayer OR crystal present (at least I don't recall crystal playing a part for Susano's summoning). So Hydaelyn could still potentially be a primal.

Ramuh still needed to be destroyed. There's enough in-game lore to tell us exactly what happens when Primals, or creatures that also feed on aether, are left to do so (the Cloud of Darkness can come out to play and return everything to the Void, which is something even the Ascians do not want, if I recall).

[kikix12]

But his presence does prove good natured primals exist, and in Stormblood we also have a primal summon themselves with no prayer OR crystal present (at least I don't recall crystal playing a part for Susano's summoning). So Hydaelyn could still potentially be a primal.

Susano'o actually is not in any way unusual. The Kojin DID pray to the relics which did accumulate Aether over time and create the primal. The story even says directly that there is little risk in them summoning a primal again because the last summoning have most likely spent all the Aether accumulated in their treasures. Him being summoned was born from the Kojin treating the infiltrator as guilty of a sacrilege. And that was very much related to their 'god', hence why he responded.

[Malkria]

Susano'o actually is not in any way unusual. The Kojin DID pray to the relics which did accumulate Aether over time and create the primal. The story even says directly that there is little risk in them summoning a primal again because the last summoning have most likely spent all the Aether accumulated in their treasures. Him being summoned was born from the Kojin treating the infiltrator as guilty of a sacrilege. And that was very much related to their 'god', hence why he responded.

I don't recall that, but I will see if I can review the scene it in the book. But if that is the case, how do you explain the doll with the beast tribe then? Because that doll didn't have time to gather aether and the shrine itself is pretty new. Of course this is what I meant by Square being fast and loose with primals anymore and their rules.

Ramuh still needed to be destroyed. There's enough in-game lore to tell us exactly what happens when Primals, or creatures that also feed on aether, are left to do so (the Cloud of Darkness can come out to play and return everything to the Void, which is something even the Ascians do not want, if I recall).

But it still doesn't change that the scions were willing to let it live AND were willing to deal with it peacefully. It was Ramuh himself that pushed the issue, not the scions. IF the plan was to stab Ramuh in the back later, that raises a lot of other problems with the character of the organization we are working for/with.

[Delily]

I don't recall that, but I will see if I can review the scene it in the book. But if that is the case, how do you explain the doll with the beast tribe then? Because that doll didn't have time to gather aether and the shrine itself is pretty new. Of course this is what I meant by Square being fast and loose with primals anymore and their rules.

Did you finish those quests? That was partially explained.

But it still doesn't change that the scions were willing to let it live AND were willing to deal with it peacefully. It was Ramuh himself that pushed the issue, not the scions. IF the plan was to stab Ramuh in the back later, that raises a lot of other problems with the character of the organization we are working for/with.

We were willing to talk with him, as of all the primals, Ramuh was aware of tempering and didn't actively do it. I would say Ramuh was also aware of what his presence meant.

Basically, I don't trust Hydaelyn anymore. Of course I have a deep seated distrust of authority in general, but in Hydaelyn's case it seems awfully justified. We can't be tempered, which seems to be something unique to primals. She takes crystals for power, and she grows in strength through prayer. ARR's ending showed us that people DO pray to her. Furthermore if the "Warrior of light" could be seen as a proxy for Hydaelyn, so praying to them, or having faith they will succeed, is the same for praying to "Hydaelyn".

We can't be tempered because of the echo, which is not unique to us. However, where are on earth did you get the idea that prayer strengthened her? A lot of people pray to her, and she's been consistently getting weakened. That's why we haven't heard from her since the end of the WoL. Also, no one prays to the WoL.

Next you have the effect of what happens when Hydaelyn WINS. In Heavenward we meet the "Warriors of Darkness" which actually were the WoL from another 'star' (universe/dimension?). In their world they beat the bad guys and all the primals, which if any stated primal would do would lead to the end of the world. Which, surprise, is exactly what is happening to a world where the light wins.

Another reality. The story is that there are 13 different realities (shards). The Ascians are trying to cause calamities because each time they do, a shard is destroyed and reabsorbed back into the "main" reality which is implied to the be the one we're in. Zodiark will be resurrected when all the shards have been reunited. The WoD, under the leadership of the Ascians, defeated all the darkness and caused their world to be flooded with light. That was not what Hydaelyn wanted, why do you think she sent Minifillia off to help them?

Finally there is the echo itself. The gift of the echo seem to be able to take stress that would break normal people. Non-stop combat and saving the world? Well if our character shows any signs of straining...I haven't seen it. Even when someone was put through an insidious 'experiment', she seems to bounce back relatively quickly. But someone granted an echo through artificial means? She is on the verge of breaking down already. So something besides the echo itself must be getting imparted, something that wouldn't LET someone with an echo break. Something like...being tempered.

Someone mentioned it before, but the DRK story line handles this quite well. However, the echo is not tempering by a long shot. An entity that's tempered is basically a fanatic who seeks to gather more crystals and get more people tempered. That's it. The WoL, on the other hand, seems to have full control of his mental and emotional faculties, and outside of the MSQ, certainly has free will to spend his time, whether it's crafting, helping the beast tribes, or dealing with threats to Eorzea that aren't tied directly to Hydaelyn (Rabby, Omega, Syrcus tower, Mhach) etc.

So basically, I feel there is significant cause for concern that the force we have been working for may in fact be the very thing we are working against. Or at least it needs to have some more screen time to explain exactly why Hydaelyn is any different from the primals or 'gods' that we have been going around slaying since day one of the game.

You should watch the cut scenes again. Hydaelyn acknowledged the WoD's plight and sent Minfillia off to help them. She's given us the power to defend our friends. She's working to prevent the rejoining of the 13 shards. The story line makes it pretty clear she can be trusted.

[Rokke]

Finally there is the echo itself. The gift of the echo seem to be able to take stress that would break normal people. Non-stop combat and saving the world? Well if our character shows any signs of straining...I haven't seen it. Even when someone was put through an insidious 'experiment', she seems to bounce back relatively quickly. But someone granted an echo through artificial means? She is on the verge of breaking down already. So something besides the echo itself must be getting imparted, something that wouldn't LET someone with an echo break. Something like...being tempered.

imo others have discussed the other points pretty well, but for this one:
The natural echo users we’ve met all grew/are growing into their “power” and you can see different levels of maturity across them. Fordola is struggling as hard as she is because she went from having no echo to having an oversensitive echo (they copied Krile's into her) with absolutely no time or means to acclimate. She's dealing with equivalent of getting thrown into a pool without learning to swim.

[ObsidianFire]

The Echo and any form of tempering are very, very different.

We see what the most advanced "use" of the Echo is in the Singularity Reactor when Lahabrea and the Igeyorhm fully merge into one being. It should be noted this is what the Ascians think Zodiark wants of them. However, this still gives a good indication of what everyone with the Echo is doing in some form or another. Our souls are capable of leaving or bodies and seeing what happened with other people's souls regardless of time and language and we can even safely go to the aetherial realm where Hydaelyn is and come back to our bodies with no problems (and extend this to other people without the Echo sometimes).

It's just that we're still respecting our (and other people's) corporeal limits and not overriding other people's will which is what we see the Ascians and Zenos use the Echo for.

Our Echo has also changed as the game has gone on. In 1.0 the WoL can't even tell the past from the present (yes, this is about as confusing as it sounds). In 2.0 we now can tell the difference, but it knocks us out for the night and is really painful. By 3.0 and forward, we're getting a look at Hrasvelger's past (which must be very, very weird given how dragons view time...) and have a minor migrane for our troubles. Our Echo (any most other natural Echo users presumably) also spends most of it's time in "sleep mode" and only really kicks in when we need to know something important. It is very rarely, if ever, is an inconvenience to us.

Fordola's Resonance is always on and is constantly debilitating to her. And Zenos' Echo... well... who knows what individual's Echo his is based on... Personally, I'm thinking it's based on an Acians and given that one of the main uses the Ascians have for their Echo is keeping them from dying, well... guess what Echo effect I think Zenos can't turn off?

All that to say though... we've never seen any form of tempering that does anything like that.

[Kazrah]

All that to say though... we've never seen any form of tempering that does anything like that.

Comparing the two, the common link is some sort of being hailed as a deity bestowing power to a loyal subject. The only major key difference is that the primals empowering their subjects are doing so on an aetherial budget, so they grant power on a rudimentary level, leaving various side effects such as enthrallment and even transformations such as the captain in Sastasha. Hydaelyn or Zodiark, on the other hand, are running on effectively infinite supplies of aether, resulting in far greater displays of power with less undesirable side effects.

As for the original question of Hydaelyn being a primal or not, I'd say no just because primals aren't fully self-sustaining like Hydaelyn or Zodiark are.

[hynaku]

Not sure but always thought Hydaelyn was spirit of the planet and if she died planet would die. Just like how Gaia is spirit of the earth.

[Nestama]

But it still doesn't change that the scions were willing to let it live AND were willing to deal with it peacefully. It was Ramuh himself that pushed the issue, not the scions. IF the plan was to stab Ramuh in the back later, that raises a lot of other problems with the character of the organization we are working for/with.

I'll have to watch the cutscene again as I do not recall the Scions being willing to give one Primal a pass... unless you mean they were willing to ask him to leave (cease existing) peacefully.