[Spoilers] Is Hydaelyn a primal?

[ObsidianFire]

This should be taken to the lore forum given the topic.

No. Hydaelyn is not a primal. She (and Zodiark) pre-date the world (and life) as we know it. She is the source of aether which makes up all life (including the aether the primals are made out of). The only time Warriors of Light come into being is when Zodiark's minions (that Ascians) are about to bring about a Rejoining (Umbral Calamity) and Hydaelyn needs someone to try and stop them (Hydaelyn hasn't yet succeeded at this until the 7th Umbral Calamity). Other then that, Hydaelyn seems to keep a hands-off approach to the word.

It should be mentioned that the Rejoining will end life as we know it on the shards, and Hydaelyn doesn't want that to happen since all life is precious to her. Since she doesn't like messing with free will, the main option that she seems to take is to give people who are already taking initiative in stopping the Rejoining some of her power so that they can go toe to toe with the Ascians who are similarly empowered by Zodiark.

Primals start as ideas people have that they believe in enough to make real. And the Ascians have been involved with each Primal creation/summoning to date. Given that the Ascians are trying to destroy Hydaelyn's creations (the shards) it would make no sense that she is a primal.

Also, primal tempering gives nothing like the Echo. It always limits what people do instead of expanding on what they can do. The Echo is also a prerequisite for becoming an Ascian so if everyone with the Echo is really is tempered by Hydaelyn, then the Ascians had better be tempered by Zodiark and that's not what we see.

[Malkria]

This should be taken to the lore forum given the topic.

No. Hydaelyn is not a primal. She (and Zodiark) pre-date the world (and life) as we know it. She is the source of aether which makes up all life (including the aether the primals are made out of). The only time Warriors of Light come into being is when Zodiark's minions (that Ascians) are about to bring about a Rejoining (Umbral Calamity) and Hydaelyn needs someone to try and stop them (Hydaelyn hasn't yet succeeded at this until the 7th Umbral Calamity). Other then that, Hydaelyn seems to keep a hands-off approach to the word.

It should be mentioned that the Rejoining will end life as we know it on the shards, and Hydaelyn doesn't want that to happen since all life is precious to her. Since she doesn't like messing with free will, the main option that she seems to take is to give people who are already taking initiative in stopping the Rejoining some of her power so that they can go toe to toe with the Ascians who are similarly empowered by Zodiark.

Primals start as ideas people have that they believe in enough to make real. And the Ascians have been involved with each Primal creation/summoning to date. Given that the Ascians are trying to destroy Hydaelyn's creations (the shards) it would make no sense that she is a primal.

Also, primal tempering gives nothing like the Echo. It always limits what people do instead of expanding on what they can do. The Echo is also a prerequisite for becoming an Ascian so if everyone with the Echo is really is tempered by Hydaelyn, then the Ascians had better be tempered by Zodiark and that's not what we see.

The problem in your logic is present in the phrasing you use. "She pre-dates the world (and life) as we know it" may be true, but you also point out that the calamity would wipe out life as we know it. So could it not also be possible that she and her opposite are in fact left over from a previous cycle? As for the Acians trying to stop her, that doesn't exclude her as a primal any more then simply being in opposition to their goals.

As for the tempering, we have only seen it used by newly summoned primals and those not bound to a human to boot. Shiva and the knights when summoned and bound within morals apparently either didn't have the capability to temper, or were able to suppress it all together. But I would lean in the latter then the former, as otherwise it changes how primals operate all together but we are told it still is a primal as we know it to be in game. To treat them otherwise would break down all rhyme and reason to how primals operate...and frankly I feel the logic is fast and loose enough as it is. However, the point is that if tempering can be throttled, there is no reason to believe that one can be left with little more then compulsion rather then a complete sacrifice of will. Keep in mind that every time our character has a chance to make a dialogue 'choice' that we never have the option to deviate from the stereotypical hero archetype. In fact, this lack of deviation and lack of free choice could in itself be indicative of our being tempered.

Yes some Primals on the surface do not seem malign like Ramuh, but they are still extremely dangerous and must be destroyed.

The only problem with that example was that even the Scions were willing to let him continue to exist peacefully. We only ended up fighting him because he was wanting to test our mettle and was willing to leave if we could protect the forest if I recall (it was a long time ago in the storyline). But his presence does prove good natured primals exist, and in Stormblood we also have a primal summon themselves with no prayer OR crystal present (at least I don't recall crystal playing a part for Susano's summoning). So Hydaelyn could still potentially be a primal.

[Nestama]

The only problem with that example was that even the Scions were willing to let him continue to exist peacefully. We only ended up fighting him because he was wanting to test our mettle and was willing to leave if we could protect the forest if I recall (it was a long time ago in the storyline). But his presence does prove good natured primals exist, and in Stormblood we also have a primal summon themselves with no prayer OR crystal present (at least I don't recall crystal playing a part for Susano's summoning). So Hydaelyn could still potentially be a primal.

Ramuh still needed to be destroyed. There's enough in-game lore to tell us exactly what happens when Primals, or creatures that also feed on aether, are left to do so (the Cloud of Darkness can come out to play and return everything to the Void, which is something even the Ascians do not want, if I recall).

[kikix12]

But his presence does prove good natured primals exist, and in Stormblood we also have a primal summon themselves with no prayer OR crystal present (at least I don't recall crystal playing a part for Susano's summoning). So Hydaelyn could still potentially be a primal.

Susano'o actually is not in any way unusual. The Kojin DID pray to the relics which did accumulate Aether over time and create the primal. The story even says directly that there is little risk in them summoning a primal again because the last summoning have most likely spent all the Aether accumulated in their treasures. Him being summoned was born from the Kojin treating the infiltrator as guilty of a sacrilege. And that was very much related to their 'god', hence why he responded.

[Malkria]

Susano'o actually is not in any way unusual. The Kojin DID pray to the relics which did accumulate Aether over time and create the primal. The story even says directly that there is little risk in them summoning a primal again because the last summoning have most likely spent all the Aether accumulated in their treasures. Him being summoned was born from the Kojin treating the infiltrator as guilty of a sacrilege. And that was very much related to their 'god', hence why he responded.

I don't recall that, but I will see if I can review the scene it in the book. But if that is the case, how do you explain the doll with the beast tribe then? Because that doll didn't have time to gather aether and the shrine itself is pretty new. Of course this is what I meant by Square being fast and loose with primals anymore and their rules.

Ramuh still needed to be destroyed. There's enough in-game lore to tell us exactly what happens when Primals, or creatures that also feed on aether, are left to do so (the Cloud of Darkness can come out to play and return everything to the Void, which is something even the Ascians do not want, if I recall).

But it still doesn't change that the scions were willing to let it live AND were willing to deal with it peacefully. It was Ramuh himself that pushed the issue, not the scions. IF the plan was to stab Ramuh in the back later, that raises a lot of other problems with the character of the organization we are working for/with.

[Delily]

I don't recall that, but I will see if I can review the scene it in the book. But if that is the case, how do you explain the doll with the beast tribe then? Because that doll didn't have time to gather aether and the shrine itself is pretty new. Of course this is what I meant by Square being fast and loose with primals anymore and their rules.

Did you finish those quests? That was partially explained.

But it still doesn't change that the scions were willing to let it live AND were willing to deal with it peacefully. It was Ramuh himself that pushed the issue, not the scions. IF the plan was to stab Ramuh in the back later, that raises a lot of other problems with the character of the organization we are working for/with.

We were willing to talk with him, as of all the primals, Ramuh was aware of tempering and didn't actively do it. I would say Ramuh was also aware of what his presence meant.

Basically, I don't trust Hydaelyn anymore. Of course I have a deep seated distrust of authority in general, but in Hydaelyn's case it seems awfully justified. We can't be tempered, which seems to be something unique to primals. She takes crystals for power, and she grows in strength through prayer. ARR's ending showed us that people DO pray to her. Furthermore if the "Warrior of light" could be seen as a proxy for Hydaelyn, so praying to them, or having faith they will succeed, is the same for praying to "Hydaelyn".

We can't be tempered because of the echo, which is not unique to us. However, where are on earth did you get the idea that prayer strengthened her? A lot of people pray to her, and she's been consistently getting weakened. That's why we haven't heard from her since the end of the WoL. Also, no one prays to the WoL.

Next you have the effect of what happens when Hydaelyn WINS. In Heavenward we meet the "Warriors of Darkness" which actually were the WoL from another 'star' (universe/dimension?). In their world they beat the bad guys and all the primals, which if any stated primal would do would lead to the end of the world. Which, surprise, is exactly what is happening to a world where the light wins.

Another reality. The story is that there are 13 different realities (shards). The Ascians are trying to cause calamities because each time they do, a shard is destroyed and reabsorbed back into the "main" reality which is implied to the be the one we're in. Zodiark will be resurrected when all the shards have been reunited. The WoD, under the leadership of the Ascians, defeated all the darkness and caused their world to be flooded with light. That was not what Hydaelyn wanted, why do you think she sent Minifillia off to help them?

Finally there is the echo itself. The gift of the echo seem to be able to take stress that would break normal people. Non-stop combat and saving the world? Well if our character shows any signs of straining...I haven't seen it. Even when someone was put through an insidious 'experiment', she seems to bounce back relatively quickly. But someone granted an echo through artificial means? She is on the verge of breaking down already. So something besides the echo itself must be getting imparted, something that wouldn't LET someone with an echo break. Something like...being tempered.

Someone mentioned it before, but the DRK story line handles this quite well. However, the echo is not tempering by a long shot. An entity that's tempered is basically a fanatic who seeks to gather more crystals and get more people tempered. That's it. The WoL, on the other hand, seems to have full control of his mental and emotional faculties, and outside of the MSQ, certainly has free will to spend his time, whether it's crafting, helping the beast tribes, or dealing with threats to Eorzea that aren't tied directly to Hydaelyn (Rabby, Omega, Syrcus tower, Mhach) etc.

So basically, I feel there is significant cause for concern that the force we have been working for may in fact be the very thing we are working against. Or at least it needs to have some more screen time to explain exactly why Hydaelyn is any different from the primals or 'gods' that we have been going around slaying since day one of the game.

You should watch the cut scenes again. Hydaelyn acknowledged the WoD's plight and sent Minfillia off to help them. She's given us the power to defend our friends. She's working to prevent the rejoining of the 13 shards. The story line makes it pretty clear she can be trusted.

[Nestama]

But it still doesn't change that the scions were willing to let it live AND were willing to deal with it peacefully. It was Ramuh himself that pushed the issue, not the scions. IF the plan was to stab Ramuh in the back later, that raises a lot of other problems with the character of the organization we are working for/with.

I'll have to watch the cutscene again as I do not recall the Scions being willing to give one Primal a pass... unless you mean they were willing to ask him to leave (cease existing) peacefully.

[Magusware]

No. Hydaelyn is not a primal.

*smug face*

[Selova]

*smug face*

You bookmarked this thread waiting for this exact moment didn't you? :P

[Fredco191]

lol

*does the Get Fantasy dance in a jacket made out of soda cans*