Revelations from Patch 4.2

[Xie_Belvoule]

phone double post, see below please.

[Xie_Belvoule]

Very happy to see Zenos back, killing him so early was a waste. We need a real rival like him. Hopefully it's not just a lame ascian body surfing in him.

As far as his appeal I can outline a few things that make him very interesting as he's a much more nuanced character then people think. For starters he is your equal in every sense of the word, his ability being an artificial version of the echo. Other then the entirely misused "Warriors of Darkness" our only other equals are Frdola and Zenos. We've always been superior to our opponents until we hit the brick wall of Zenos. He is the only one who truly understands the echo and thus by extension he understands the WoL. The power and burden that the WoL has to shoulder. Also the level 70 above his head is a wake up call to the WoL, it tells them that the peak they thought they had hit was just a plateau and that mount 70 was looming over them. It's like the part in an anime or manga when the hero realizes that Super Saiyen isn't gonna cut it anymore, it's time to train and power up to attain a new level of power. It's supposed to annoy you, it's intentional. It's their to knock you off your high horse.

That leads to my next point, a major part of his appeal is how genre savvy he is. He is very meta in the sense that he knows he is a designated villian on the world stage and he's just acting out his part. When he spoke of man having the wisdom to embrace violence for its own sake he reveals much of his character. He knows that violence is terrible but it's inevitable and natural. Unlike others who justify their killings with flowery sentiments, he embraces violence and makes no exscuse for it. Unlike Lyse who kills others in the name of "Freedom" or the Garleans who kill in the name of "peace and stability." The differance is that Zenos and the WoL know its just that, violence, brutal and terrible. The DRK quest shows that the WoL is filled with regret over the lives they must take. Zenos however chooses to joyfully embrace the violence as part of human nature, in that regard he is very similar to the Comedian from Watchmen. Zenos revels in the violence, openly embracing strife and chaos; actively stoking the fires of war.

Theirs also has an interesting moment where he has a conversation with the WoL while addressing the player directly. When he says you live for these moments when everything is at stake, it's an interesting meta commentary on you the player finding all the action thrilling. When he said that line I found myself nodding in agreement, he spoke to my inner blood knight. To hell with Ala Mhigo, I didn't care wether it was saved or not. All I wanted was a glorious battle and got one in the Menagrie.

[ObsidianFire]

Ehh.... that makes a lot of assumptions about the WoL's motivations that are left up to the player. Some of us didn't want Zenos dead. Some of us really did want him dead, just not like how he went out. Some of us agreed with him on certain things. Some of us never understood how he could make those assumptions about us. Some of us are having mental breakdowns over what he said to us. Some of us aren't taking any of what he says seriously because we think he's crazy. I could go on...

Given that SE actually gave us an option on how we wanted to respond to Zenos in-game, I have to imagine that they're going to give us at least those two options when we meet up with him again. There's a lot of ways I can see Zenos coming back being done well, but also a lot of ways SE could screw it up. Not letting the WoL pick a broad-strokes reaction to the whole thing would really screw it up.

[Xie_Belvoule]

When stating that I didn't care about Ala Mhigo I was referring to myself as the player. As far as my inclusion of the DRK quest line it was simply an example of how the WoL might feel. Your welcome to use as little or as much of the job quests to fill in the blanks of the WoLs character and motivation. However the MSQ which is "canon" for us shows the WoL repeatedly through out the story attempting (and failing often) to find nonviolent solutions to the problems around them. This implies atleast an unwillingness to use violence unless nesscacry. He/she is a hero and that's all that matters in context with Zenos. If you try to accept him he says no, that he's the villian and you know how this ends. Regardless of the WoLs motivations, Zenos' character revolves in large part around his thirst for violence and his meta narrative of knowing he is a villian to be defeated. Which is why I suspect he's so furious at the end of 4.2. He has been denied his glorious grandstanding death.

Your right, many players had differant reactions to Zenos. I for one didn't want him to die, as he is truly the only equal of the WoL. I was distraught when Zenos took his own life. I didn't want to fight him but knew it had to be done. I felt like superman when he was forced to kill Zod. Losing one of the only people who could truly understand you was a terrible feeling but he had to be stopped. I was attempting to explain to others why some find him a compelling character that they like and were glad to see return. I simply explained why I found him appealing. The main thrust of my point is that he is your peer, the only villian who could truly be our rival, our nemesis. So I'm glad he's back and can't wait for more glorious battles with my friend.

[Berethos]

Much of their conquest is likely driven by a preemptive desire to never suffer such persecution again.

A goal they achieved decades ago when they conquered Ilsabard.

Everything since has been solely driven by the ambition of the individual that is currently ruling the nation. They haven't had more than a fragile claim to the "we don't want to be persecuted again" motivation for years now.

[Xie_Belvoule]

A goal they achieved decades ago when they conquered Ilsabard.

Everything since has been solely driven by the ambition of the individual that is currently ruling the nation. They haven't had more than a fragile claim to the "we don't want to be persecuted again" motivation for years now.

Well yes they had finally achieved parity with the other aether wielding races using their magitek. Until they encountered the primals which magitek has no answer for. So they are right back to facing the threat of subjugation by a powerful enough primal. I think the risk of having your entire race and culture enslaved as souless thralls would drive anyone to desperation. The fact that politicians and rulers would take advantage of this fear is unsurprising. As powerful as Garlemald may appear they have no answer to the primal problem. Primals can appear anywhere, anytime. Just look at susanoo and Lakshmi who were either unintentionally or suddenly summoned. These things are monsters of the id, eldritch abominations that devour the souls of the living. I don't think the Garleans are wrong to fear their subjugation and perhaps eventual extinction at the hands of these nightmarish entities. Until they have an answer to the primal question their will continue to be people who manipulate the populace's fear of primals for their own benifit.

Yes they were conquering other nations before they ever encountered primals, but they do make a convenient rallying cry don't they? Oh and before you say that their conquests of other nations makes them evil, remember this setting is not the modern world. Conflict in medieval times was common, and part of politics and nation building. Besides before the alliance, all the nations of Eorzea were trying to conquer each other. That doesn't make them evil either.

[Cilia]

Yes [the Empire was] conquering other nations before they ever encountered primals, but they do make a convenient rallying cry don't they? ... Besides before the alliance, all the nations of Eorzea were trying to conquer each other.

You... just admitted that the Empire's rationale for its conquest outside Ilsabard is nothing but a convenient excuse. How refreshing!

The Empire's actions are not going to solve the primal threat; if anything it makes the threat worse, as I've been arguing for some time and Hien pointed out during 4.2. Prior to its attempted invasions, primals were an occasional nuisance to Eorzea rather than the plague they've become, just to give an example.

All spoken races (and indeed, no small number of the beastmen) fear primals. It's not exclusive to Garleans. A concerted, well-thought out plan for dealing with them would be more effective than arrogantly deciding that your way (genocide, subjugation, and outlawing religious observation) is best, and that anyone who disagrees with you is simply too primitive to understand and therefore needs to be subjugated or killed.

Other than the Autumn War and the War of the Sisters, there are no known instances of an Eorzean nation starting war to subjugate other nations. Even those weren't about conquest for its own sake; the Autumn War was intended to spur economic activity in Ala Mhigo which had fallen into a slump with the rise of naval trade routes, and the War of the Sisters broke out because Sil'dih was diverting water from Ul'dah during a time of drought.

[Xie_Belvoule]

(genocide, subjugation, and outlawing religious observation)

You mean the stated policies of the Eorzean nations, until the WoL showed up.

The only reason the Eorzean Alliance gets to play the good guys is because they have the biggest beat stick around, the WoL.

Hell Ashai demanded that Hien police the religion of the red Kojin.

Let's see if your logic holds on the nations and their war mongering. War of the sisters was fought for the security and prosperity of the two cities inhabitants, check. Autumn War was fought for the security and prosperity of Ala Mhigos people, check. The wars of Garlean conquest were fought for the security and prosperity of the Garleans, check. Nah these wars are nothing alike.....

[Dualblade]

You mean the stated policies of the Eorzean nations, until the WoL showed up.

The last one is blatantly false given that plenty of Eorzeans worship the Twelve, including the leaders.

[Theodric]

Eorzea is largely protected from getting its hands dirty as various plot conveniences such as the Warrior of Light and Midgardsormr's timely intervention prevent its people from resorting to extremes in order to protect themselves either directly or indirectly. Now, if the Warrior of Light was not a thing and Primals were not defeated in a timely manner? Increasingly harsh measures would have to be taken against Eorzea's various Beast Tribes. Up to and included genocide, most likely.

This, of course, will no doubt be brushed off as mere speculation and a hypothesis. Still, there's a rather major elephant in the room that needs to be addressed by the plot moving forward. That major elephant in the room is that those who do not have the Warrior of Light to rely upon (either in the past or the present) have some tough decisions to make. Cold, hard logic proves effective in those scenarios - and whilst it may not necessarily be the right or ideal move to make, it's at least understandable to see why such decisions are made.

If only because most nations in Hydaelyn do not have the luxury of having their leaders foolishly invite Tempered into the heart of their cities and then emerge completely unscathed when a Primal is conjured forth as a consequence.

No, those nations who do not have the Warrior of Light to lean upon would have their leadership Tempered and/or slaughtered. Then the Primal would run amok until being put down...though not without an immense loss of life.

How this plays out in the future remains to be seen, though. As it stands, I feel like the story pushes a false, dangerous narrative that everything would work out for the better if only people relied on idealists. That's all well and good in theory, but in practice these idealists only succeed because...they have the Warrior of Light to lean upon. If they did not? What then? At some point, diplomacy and idealism twists into darker territory and a sense of putting one's people before all else. Garlemald and Ishgard (up until recently) are prime examples of this...and understandably so. In Ishgard's case, things only worked out the way that they did due to the Warrior of Light's intervention.