This whole Meta Party thing is hurting me. x_x

[Trensharo]

They have a fundamental misunderstanding of how raiding works.

The people who don't understand why META is a thing have an actual "fundamental misunderstanding of how raiding work." It's worked this way for the past ~2 Decades. Since the early days of EQ, it has worked this way. Guilds would bench players mid-raid to being in different classes for the encounter. The issues people are complaining about are less an issue with class design, IMO, and moreso with content design. The fact that the "META" comp is so viable across all the end-game content in the game is a significant balance faux pas that I've never seen before in end-game raiding... Until now.

I think the small raid group sizes is also a contributing factor. So many jobs... so few slots. WoW has 20 slots in Mythic raiding. There are < 20 classes. There are different Specs, but at that level you're pretty much expected to be able to play 2 (if not all three) of your class' specs at a high level. This means no class gets left out, and players simply switch specs based on the encounter.

[Rusheel]

It helps if you remember that most of the people talking in the official forums and reddit are idiots.

Oi those be fighting words dont insult my people there is an imaginary difference between an idiot and a stupid poster.

Going back to the relevance of this thread ya most of what he said. People arent high enough skill level to barking out those demands. Looking at you Byakku ex pfs with ye no double class options.

[Ursa_Vonfiebryd]

Play what you like. Discover what is optimal play for that job and learn the content you want to take that job through. No one will deny a competent player based on job stone alone and those that do aren't worth your time anyway.

[HaroldSaxon]

The people who don't understand why META is a thing have an actual "fundamental misunderstanding of how raiding work." It's worked this way for the past ~2 Decades. Since the early days of EQ, it has worked this way. Guilds would bench players mid-raid to being in different classes for the encounter. The issues people are complaining about are less an issue with class design, IMO, and moreso with content design. The fact that the "META" comp is so viable across all the end-game content in the game is a significant balance faux pas that I've never seen before in end-game raiding... Until now.

I think the small raid group sizes is also a contributing factor. So many jobs... so few slots. WoW has 20 slots in Mythic raiding. There are < 20 classes. There are different Specs, but at that level you're pretty much expected to be able to play 2 (if not all three) of your class' specs at a high level. This means no class gets left out, and players simply switch specs based on the encounter.

You raise some good points, but I still think class design is also an issue. When certain classes and roles are completely outclassed by others, it is a problem.

[Tsilyi]

As an aside, what I find comical about the meta, is that the top performing DPS role in Sigmascape Savage is not part of the meta. Shows how ridiculous the meta is, as a concept.

surely you aren't making the claim the that highest dps = the top performing role based on that number. said class provides no additional raid dps. in a vacuum, sure, they look the best. when you take the other factors into account, they do not.

[Eli85]

Snip.

I really don't understand why my point is so hard to get across.

No, the mathematics don't disagree with me, they disagree with you. The 'meta' (assuming we agree with it) requires more than is necessary to defeat the boss. Literally any group comp can mathematically kill the boss without. To deliberately exclude classes who can easily kill the boss creates a toxic environment of exclusion. This obsession over metre competing, speed running, just creates an awful environment.

I also never complained about my BLM being excluded.

Snip.

The primarily role of a DPS class is to provide DPS. Secondary roles are utility. So yes, whoever has the highest parse on a fight is the top DPS. That is by definition and to argue against it is to show you don't know what you're talking about. So yes, BLM isn't in the meta, but it's the top performing DPS. The whole thing is comical.

And the difference is vast in some cases.

Look up the statistics on FF Logs. There is no 'vast difference.' From top to bottom, the difference isn't glaring.

Just because YOU don't care about speedrunning or bleeding edge progression, doesn't mean others don't. Furthermore a more optimal comp will help you clear sooner, give you more room for mistakes and what not.

So the skip X phase or disband isn't cancerous? People care about speed running, and that's the problem. You don't save that much time in any given comp. It just creates problems.

Wrong. Class Balance is not about if the fights can be cleared (that is fight design). Class balance is the performance of classes in comparison with each other.

Actually, you are wrong. Classes are designed and balanced with end game fights in mind (other aspects of the game just works). If a class is performing poorly (or too highly) in top end of content, that's when change occurs.

If every class is viable for end game content, in a PvE context, it's properly balanced. Full stop.

Wrong again. Using your example. What game do people remember most in the 2016 World Cup? Was it that Germany won in the final? No, they thrashed Brazil 7-1 in the Semi final. In 10/20 years time, will people remember that Messi or Ronaldo didn't win everything in every season? No, they'll care about their absolutely exceptional numbers.

What professional athlete can you think of that cares about MVPs, scoring titles, over team championships? Very, very few. Championships are what goes into the record books, not who had the best stat line in the championship game.

Just because you don't care about personal attainment or groups wanting to better themselves, doesn't mean others don't.

Once again you are misunderstanding me. Personal attainment or self improvement is fine. Excluding others because they don't fit into some mythical 'meta' — despite the fact that they can complete the content — that's the problem.

In your opinion. Plenty of others enjoy the playstyle. Don't get me wrong, there is absolutely a social issue where people will want a meta comp filled with poor players at the expense of a non meta comp filled with good players, but the amount of good players playing non meta classes as a main class is very low. Why? Because the classes, and in this case, role (casters) are so bad. Maybe if you had actually read the thread rather than immediately start raging and insulting people, you would realize that.

Casters being 'bad' is a community created concept that has no merit to it whatsoever. The best DPSer in the game is a caster. Too many people in the community have created this myth that casters are bad and these others are better. It's false. Everyone is capable of clearing the content.

Because your metric of "top performing" isn't accurate. Its ridiculous to claim the top personal DPS class is the top performing DPS role because you aren't taking into account raid dps contribution.

SAM had top personal DPS last patch (with SMN changing on both fights). They weren't meta because BRD/NIN/DRG and MCH (with MNK swapping for MCH in o1s) did more raidwide DPS. It is a team game afterall

As I quoted earlier, the primary role of a DPS is doing damage. By definition, the DPSer who does the most damage is the top performing DPSer. Full stop. There is no arguing this.

[Kabooa]

Taking conservative RDPS numbers (Tanks at 3000, Healers at 1500, each DPS at 4500), your total raid contribution is 27,000.

On average, Black Mages deal approximately 10% more than the average with data we have so far, (So a Black Mage would be at 4950).

Assuming a set up of: Paladin, Warrior, Ninja, Dragoon, Machinist, Bard, White Mage, Scholar, the Black Mage is most likely being brought instead of the Machinist.

This brings the raid DPS to 27,450. Please note this is before applying the various RDPS buffs.

"Full stop", just by slotting in the Black Mage, the Dragoon's RDPS contribution dropped by 225 (5% of 4500 from the Machinist), so the real benefit of Black Mage drops to +225. 27,225 vs 27,450

Losing the average 1.25% RDPS bonus that Machinist brings (27,225 x 1.0125 = 27,565.3).

Taking out the Machinist means you lost Mana Song, a far superior mana restoration skill. This has implicit DPS gains as it completely removes any need of MP management from the healers (All GCDs used for healing will be the most powerful healing spells, not the most cost efficient, so more GCDs can be devoted to damage). It also brings a universal damage down, so in any fights where physical busters are a concern, this is again an implicit DPS gain.

This is the problem. The Black Mage being present is a choice each individual raid team makes, and in turn they sacrifice something for overall the same-if-not-worse damage totals.

Not exactly a 'top performing DPS'.

[Tsilyi]

The primarily role of a DPS class is to provide DPS. Secondary roles are utility. So yes, whoever has the highest parse on a fight is the top DPS. That is by definition and to argue against it is to show you don't know what you're talking about. So yes, BLM isn't in the meta, but it's the top performing DPS. The whole thing is comical.

As I quoted earlier, the primary role of a DPS is doing damage. By definition, the DPSer who does the most damage is the top performing DPSer. Full stop. There is no arguing this.

Are you making sure to discount any of the buffs they gained from these other so called DPS classes buffing them? Balance, crit buffs, flat damage% increases. Would you say that a group of 4 blm as dps (excluding the fact that it would have an impact on the LB gauge) would produce more rDPS than say a meta composition such as brd/mch/drg/nin? You cannot consider DPS in a vacuum. You have to consider the utility brought and/or sacrificed.

BLM brings only apocstasis on its own. It should be doing more damage, just as samurai should be, to cover for the fact that it does not improve anyone else's damage or help give say, healers more time to dps and anything like that. The whole point of DPS is to contribute dps, and if you are not considering the impact a particular dps job has on the other dps that surround them, with buffs and utility, then you aren't looking at the whole picture of dps. I'm bringing this up to show you don't know what you're talking about.

[Veliena]

Am I not allowed to make counterpoints? Am I not allowed to deny saying something that I haven't said?

You specifically said this:



I absolutely did not say that BLM should be given a buff for the group. If you can find a post where I have said that then feel free to quote it. Perhaps you misread something I said.

Snip

Just delete the vulnerability completely. Add in some QoL changes to BLM, and some long duration single target buffs that don't benefit burst classes more than sustained DPS classes.

Maybe I misread what you wanted here, but in any case, this is where I began having issues. You specifically ask for something to be outright removed, not other jobs to be given something as beneficial. I point out that blm is the highest, single dps in the game currently, after you go on and on for 8 pages about them needing a buff, then say no, those aren't good stats. Granted its early but really?

The game devs didn't make the meta, the players did. Why? To shave minimal time off a kill? Seriously? And you want SE to rotate around with this, so that everyone has a chance to look at other jobs and be like, nah I'll pass.

Since when did killing the boss not be enough?

[Kabooa]

Since when did killing the boss not be enough?

You know what makes killing the boss easier?

More damage and party tools.

Crazy, right?