so whens Alphinaud gonna die or sent offscreen for a long time?

[Jandor]

We worked with Ysayle, who by Hraesvelgr's admission, essentially tempered/brainwashed herself.

I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion, she could be pretty delusional but that's very different to being tempered.

Also starting peace talks with saying that everyone can come and then immediately turning around and saying "but not you" is not the greatest way to start peace talks.

"Everyone can come except for the mind controlled minions of a demi-god that would slowly suck the planet dry," seems perfectly reasonable to me, the tempered cannot be trusted. We learn that by level 20.

[basketofseals]

I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion, she could be pretty delusional but that's very different to being tempered.

I reached that conclusion by being told that explicitly by a very old and wise character.

To follow that up, when you're asked about your opinion on the tempered and say you wish to give them a chance, your party member also name drops Ysayle and compares them.

[Jandor]

I reached that conclusion by being told that explicitly by a very old and wise character.

To follow that up, when you're asked about your opinion on the tempered and say you wish to give them a chance, your party member also name drops Ysayle and compares them.

Hraesvelgr calls her delusional and says that the Shiva she's created is not the actual Shiva. He doesn't say she's tempered herself.

[basketofseals]

Hraesvelgr calls her delusional and says that the Shiva she's created is not the actual Shiva. He doesn't say she's tempered herself.

Ah, well I certainly don't have any screen shots of a MSQ I did years ago, but from what I remember he definitely mentioned that her summoning Shiva into herself either warped or changed her mind and or memories.

Ysayle was DEFINITELY brought up in the most recent MSQ though in regards the treatment of tempered individuals, so at the very least, the cast considers her as such.

[sarehptar]

"Everyone can come except for the mind controlled minions of a demi-god that would slowly suck the planet dry," seems perfectly reasonable to me, the tempered cannot be trusted. We learn that by level 20.

Except... I mean, the reason Beast Tribes summon primals in the first place is because they feel like they have no control over their fates, are not being represented or listened to fairly, and are being threatened by the governments of other people, so deliberately excluding them would mean actively perpetuating the mindset that produced said primals and tempered tribes in the first place... Like, Lyse's entire point in that situation was that she wants to break that specific cycle in order to create genuine peace, not just "peace for some people."

As for Alphinaud (speaking in general here, not to the person I quoted above), I can't help but feel that some people are just kind of tone deaf? Alphinaud went through major character development with the failure of the Crystal Braves, spent the beginning of Heavensward essentially blue-screening, rededicated himself to the cause, came to idealize a totally different type of role model (Estinien), and moved on from a Minfillia-esque non-combat character to someone who is willing to jump into the fray with us, even if it's clear it's not his primary talent. Not sure how you miss that kind of on-screen growth except by just not reading any of his lines at all because you're already predisposed against him.

More than that, his "arrogance" has been the butt of so many jokes up to this point that it's obviously not meant to be taken remotely seriously. He's an extremely sheltered rich kid who came straight from a famous high-class magic school into the real world and keeps getting harsh doses of reality everywhere he goes. Even the recent escapades with spending money in Kugane aren't meant to imply that he's careless, but that he genuinely doesn't know how things work outside his little bubble of the upper-class. If you can't tell the difference between a jerkass character who is arrogant by choice and a character who's arrogant because he just hasn't had to deal with real-life hardships yet, I don't know what to tell you, man.

I mean, let's be real; people just hate him to have some character to hate. Especially now that Minfillia's gone, there's got to be someone as the target of the players' ire. If Alphinaud was removed from the plot, the hate would just jump to the next character down the line.

[Jandor]

Except... I mean, the reason Beast Tribes summon primals in the first place is because they feel like they have no control over their fates, are not being represented or listened to fairly, and are being threatened by the governments of other people, so deliberately excluding them would mean actively perpetuating the mindset that produced said primals and tempered tribes in the first place... Like, Lyse's entire point in that situation was that she wants to break that specific cycle in order to create genuine peace, not just "peace for some people."

Inviting the Ananta is a great idea, letting the tempered Ananta attend is not only pointless, but dumb and risky, and allowing it very predictably blew up in their faces.

[sarehptar]

Inviting the Ananta is a great idea, letting the tempered Ananta attend is not only pointless, but dumb and risky, and allowing it very predictably blew up in their faces.

You realize that the tempered Ananta don't feel like the non-tempered Ananta speak for them, right? That they're two distinct groups? That's like inviting one half of a neighborhood and then claiming that you've fairly represented the whole neighborhood.

Furthermore, did Lyse have any choice? She was a victim of the "idiot ball" plot line--Square needed a dramatic instance to end their patch, so a dramatic instance they were going to add, regardless of any and all precautions the characters could have taken. Were stupid decisions made? Sure. Why did no one sweep every part of the room looking for any potential hazards just in case? Why did Thancred and Y'shtola who have performed nigh-miracles in battle before suddenly struggle with some run-of-the-mill tempered guards? But blaming Lyse for trying to target the root cause of primal summonings in the first place is hardly any more fair than blaming your own player character for stupidly going along with it without bothering to even survey the area for random crystals... (Of course, I should say this tongue-in-cheek: I think this was just an example of bad writing, which can happen when the events of the plot are dictated by a need to add interactive elements for player characters.)

[Jandor]

You realize that the tempered Ananta don't feel like the non-tempered Ananta speak for them, right? That they're two distinct groups? That's like inviting one half of a neighborhood and then claiming that you've fairly represented the whole neighborhood.

Why should we care what the tempered Ananta feel like? They're thralls, they can't stop being thralls, and their devotion to a primal means their goals are fundamentally incompatible with ours.