The time has come to get rid of enrage timers

[Vaer]

I'm sure I'm going to ruffle some feathers here, but for an experienced raider, honestly executing mechanics is not hard. What is hard is learning mechanics. However, UCoB doesn't need to be learned anymore. The mechanics have been discovered and their solutions are widely available online.

If I could convince 7 of my WoW buddies to take a break and play FF14, I think we could clear it in fairly good time. We'd simply need to execute each phase independently. All of us are 95%+ players in WoW so I'm not super worried about the dps check.

There's a difference in qualifications between a group in the 0.01% and 95+ percentile with a full mythic clear and a group who has only cleared heroic and is attempting mythic but can't do more than 2-3 bosses before the entire tier is up, no? If the latter said "mythic is easy, it's just hitting buttons in a certain order and killing the boss" but they can't actually clear mythic what would be the point in asking what they mean? I wouldn't bother, honestly. Now maybe the latter group finds a better way of doing boss 6, even though they can't clear it, that is entirely different than this situation IMO. Something like "Well, it's easy because you can soak x mechanic with x class and cheese it." would be worth discussing, yes even if a group hadn't cleared it. Oversimplification and ignoring all nuance is not something worth discussing to me.

Just like if I said tournament tennis is easy it's literally hitting a ball with a racket and i'm low ranked with no championships or ever even participated in a tournament I would look like a tool. I'm definitely less likely to take tips/feedback from someone if they believe something like that. But If I notice a basic/intermediate error that someone of even lower rank can notice, and I let the higher ranked player know, that is sort of different.

[Gr1mwolf]

Enrage timers and similar mechanics are needed to give DPS some level of responsibility beyond just making things go faster.
Tank does bad? Group wipes.
Healer does bad? Group wipes.
DPS does bad? Fight takes a little longer to finish than it could have.
It's bad enough as it is that the DPS role is at least half as valuable/noticeable as any other due to the fact that groups have twice as many of them as Tanks or Healers by default. And then you have the Tanks and Healers ALSO doing DPS on top of their normal role.

Then there's also the fact that content would likely take much longer to complete, because many of the no-responsibility DPS would get very lazy.

[Melichoir]

I feel like with no Enrage timers, that DPS would become obsolete. Tanks and Healers can put out an ok amount of DPS. Enough to make it feasible atleast to just survive mechanics and outlast the boss by whiddling it down slowly. Instead of a 10 minute clear, itd be a 20 minute clear thatd probably work more frequently.

As pointed out by Gr1mwolf, DPS checks and enrage timers shove responsibility onto the DPS to do their job effectively, while ensuring that theyre still necessary to the raid environment.

[JunseiKei]

Bull. I'm in no way advocating for "orange flogging or bust!" here, I'm seriously just saying that the game should encourage some bare minimum of personal responsibility.

I just wanted to quote this and point out that unless the game identifies the who at fault, there is no personal responsibility in an online game. This game is built around the notion of team-based, co-operative play. As long as at least half of a team is competent, it is easy to carry the under-performers in anything outside of extreme trials.

[TaleraRistain]

Plenty of respectable entry level raid content in Everquest fell to my hand alone with most mid to high end content falling to my guild of 5, this was in an era when raids were tuned around 40 people and frequently involved more. I can promise that I'm speaking from experience here. You may well have some glamorous visions of an epic 60 minute struggle, but that's not how these things pan out. It's either a slow horrible grind or a frustrating zergfest where the only real pressure is on the raisers.

40? Holy shit, when did they slash it that low? It was 72 in my time. And they weren't epic 60 minute struggles. We would raid for hours in a night, clearing trash to the boss for our chance to tackle it. They also weren't just zergfests, as bosses had random attacks and attacks that needed to be countered by specific roles. While I enjoy doing Extremes and 24 mans here, I felt raiding was a lot more rewarding there. Even if I was staring at the wall to avoid lag while timing my AoE mez spells with the other enchanters, I felt that my role was important.

[Sebazy]

40? Holy shit, when did they slash it that low? It was 72 in my time. And they weren't epic 60 minute struggles. We would raid for hours in a night, clearing trash to the boss for our chance to tackle it. They also weren't just zergfests, as bosses had random attacks and attacks that needed to be countered by specific roles.

I had 40 in my head, it's been a long long time so I guess my memory is deceiving me there (Raided from launch to early planes, my Magelo is 9093, rerolled from a barb to Iksar with Kunark's release) =(

And yeah, whilst raids were typically an entire evening's work (I used to reserve PoG by getting in there solo and just parking those two annoying adds with my VP snare spear), most bosses weren't. It was the trash and prep that bulked the time up.

It's also worth noting that as part of the mez team, you had one of the more varied and interesting roles within raids as different encounters would often require a completely fresh approach for you, be it charm tanking giants, mezzing snakes etc. Remember that a very significant portion of the raid didn't share your fortune. Mod rods are mod rods regardless of if you were in Naggy's lair or NTOV.

I really do think you're overthinking the complexity of these bosses, it was the surroundings that typically made the challenge, not the boss themselves. Boss damage was a weird thing until Planes came along with partials slows and I'm struggling to think of many bosses that truly did anything unique beyond a few gimmicks that didn't add up to much (Dane's teleport? Meh, Rak Ashir's fire aoe? Soloed).

Rose tinted glasses have a lot to answer for =(

[TaleraRistain]

Granted, but they weren't the heavily scripted fights we have here. I think the scripted nature forces the heavier focus on enrage timers.

And oh wow, Magelo lol

[Miste]

Remember I'm not saying Bobs is right and you are all wrong. I am saying that you guys are dismissing him without holding his statements accountable. That is directly contradictory to discussion.

Because everyone is dismissing him and not discussing with him (granted I personally think he's a troll because I've tried getting him to answer some topics and he always seems to miss them) we don't know where he comes from when he says these things. He may have more insight than you think.

I'm just gonna respond to mostly what you said to Hyomin because honestly what you replied to me you still don't get my point. You're turning the behavioral example and translating it directly to this situation and that wasn't my point. My point was the psychology behind the behavior.

It is typical human behavior when people claim a task is "easy" without having ever performed said task that it is usually simply to stroke one's own ego, and it is also a typical human reaction for others to be off-put by it if they have performed said task and completed it and they know you haven't or you've given them no proof that you have.

The way Bobs goes about it is just off-putting like my example. He never backs anything up he just said the content is "not challenging" and left it at that. It is HIS responsibility to make sure people don't dismiss him by explaining his thoughts properly and answering people when they ask him "Why?". If he doesn't do that then that isn't my problem.

None of this was about your "95%+" raiding friends in WoW. Bobs is not one of them so I don't even get why you are even talking about that; are you taking this personally against you or your raiding friends? Because it isn't about you or them it is simply about how Bobs chose to present himself.

You keep moving the goalpost and adding in stuff that isn't even relevant. Similar to your thing about "feedback"...feedback isn't the same thing as calling a fight "easy" that you've never even step foot in.

Bobs made troll-like posts, and said a job is OP due to minimum fflogs. He ruined any credibility he had about this subject and we just refuse to humor him like you are suggesting we do. I mean you even admit he seems like a troll...so...we already figured that waaaay back in this thread so I think you are just late to the party.

Also again I only dismissed things he said which were either factually incorrect like saying WAR is stronger than actual DPS jobs based on minimum fflogs, and the fact he called a fight he's never tried "easy".

I mean you keep trying to get everyone to follow your philosophy on this...well.. no thanks? I can decide for myself when to listen to someone or not. I don't need you to tell me, so you are fighting a losing battle with me here. I am not going to change my mind no matter what you say.

[Bobs]

The way Bobs goes about it is just off-putting like my example. He never backs anything up he just said the content is "not challenging" and left it at that. It is HIS responsibility to make sure people don't dismiss him by explaining his thoughts properly and answering people when they ask him "Why?". If he doesn't do that then that isn't my problem.

Well I work 50-60 hours a week so if I miss something I apologize.

I just don't have the time to respond to everything. Currently I feel like this thread has become circular in its argument(s). So I was not responding to let it die.

The game is how it is, you (plural) like it. I got it.

I don't consider myself a troll.

[KaivaC]

snip

Because practically every time you speak on something relating to current endgame, you don't really back it up with substantial evidence. When challenged on a topic, you either throw out a strawman argument, make a comparison to something that barely has any relation to what is being discussed, complain and/or insinuate that you've been attacked (in very few cases with you, yes, you've been attacked, and you've been counter-attacked as well), or you do what you do here - you up and disappear without providing any relevant viewpoints to a comment you yourself made.

Maybe you are a troll. Maybe you aren't. Only person that knows that is you. The point is, if you don't 'have the time to respond to everything', why did you bother to respond at all if you weren't going to at least address the comments made to your post?