Your Experience With Frontline Since 4.15

[RiyahArp]

it was boring in 3.0, which is why everyone did shatter instead of seal rock despite all the pro pvpers complaining it was an inferior mode. You don't have one single map in this game for two years without boredom setting in. And when seal rock came in, shatter and secure died too. LoL doesn't need to change maps because its characters are its maps, and it has an absurd amount of them that are almost constantly in flux. As for skill, eh. All that skillful play didn't save Feast from becoming a wasteland when it was launched.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Now there's really zero incentives to do the modes much

Even with 4.0 PvP systems, it's still my favorite thing to do in game. I'm not even concerned with tomes, ever. I can get them in higher quantities elsewhere, and I PvP so much I'm usually capped before I actually go try to run things to cap. Mileage may vary of course, but PvP was my endgame of choice. Still is, despite my criticisms.

As far as changes, I'd love to see plenty too. It's welcome news to hear that we'll get another Seize map (hoping it's in Thanalan, or another, newer area that doesn't yet have a PvP map), and I would welcome a new Secure map as well, along with the map rotation they've alluded to. With everyone only running Shatter from 3.3 to 4.0, and because Secure/Slaughter were left dead at 50, and Seize was the "old" mode by then, it'd be hard to gather any play data when no one's playing them.

it was boring in 3.0, which is why everyone did shatter instead of seal rock despite all the pro pvpers complaining it was an inferior mode. You don't have one single map in this game for two years without boredom setting in. And when seal rock came in, shatter and secure died too. LoL doesn't need to change maps because its characters are its maps, and it has an absurd amount of them that are almost constantly in flux. As for skill, eh. All that skillful play didn't save Feast from becoming a wasteland when it was launched.

Few things:

Seize came before Shatter. 3.05 and 3.3.
Secure and Slaughter were left at level 50 through all of Heavensward, so few tried to queue for it.
People queued for Shatter because people queued for Shatter. And even that had a long wait til Frontline Freelancer
Newer players picked up Shatter quicker because you could actually win with minimal engagement where the nature of Seize encourages active engagement. I say this having taken down many players at ice who made no attempt to fight back, and STILL hearing people try to tell me you get no points from KOs in Seize and Shatter, which is just not true.

Skill has nothing to do with the Feast being a "wasteland". There's a number of factors for that one; enough that it needs its own list:

• Players' general avoidance of PvP
• Players' general misconceptions of PvP as "always" being toxic
• Players dragging their feet to get in, then the active players in the Feast are well out of lower rank tiers, thus there's slim to no one to match with
• New PvE content released at the same time seasons start; Season 1 and 2 started with the addition of PotD, then the addition of 51-200
• Sweeping, controversial changes that drive the dedicated away, and STILL fail to attract others who claim things like chat restrictions (intended to solve problems of player toxicity, yet still fail to)
• would make them want to try
• Ignoring player feedback
• Rampant cheating with a near-useless reporting system
• Stopping updates a week before a season's end - intended to "build hype" for the results, but really just opens opportunities for cheaters to make incremental point gains unnoticed
• Inconsistent pre-seasons/immediately beginning the next season as a season ends (This is an issue that correlates with new PvE content released at the same time, as players would have to focus on one or the other
• Hypocritical moderation, banning players for first-offense bad language, yet leaving open, obvious cheaters untouched for multiple seasons
• Slow, questionable balance changes, blamed on players being "too busy" with PvE content to provide feedback, when there are threads that prove otherwise

[RiyahArp]

PvP in this game really wasn't deep enough, even in 3.0, to attract a lot of people long term. You talk a lot about shatter, but seal rock got boring once you realize the only real meta was "2 on 1 the person with the most nodes" for two GCs, and "defend one node only" for the other 1. So you need incentives because there's a lot more feeling of "I've seen everything" in this game than in other modes, or you need to seriously add maps every six months or so.

Feast died well before your particular bugbears, the chat system and 4.0. Rewards for the first seasons were junk for 99% of the players. It took them five seasons to realize that maybe people not in the top 100 needed feast specific rewards to play ranked, and then they hurredly copied overwatch's golden gun system (but made it even longer to get for most people.) Mostly Feast was a perfect example of why you don't design for the hardcore (because it wiped out people in the lower ranks and you need them to be the base of players to populate the mode) and why you don't focus on the "pro" playerbase even beyond the hardcore (rewards were crap for people who even sunk a lot of time to it, and added incentive to cheat and use alts.) TBH i feel it should go the way of the wolf's den, and probably will if the tournament mode dies or they still can't get people into it.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Oh there's so much wrong in that post, I'm exhausted at the thought of trying to correct anything.

First it's "too many buttons"/"too much CC"/"too much focus on buffs and bursts, and NOW it "wasn't deep enough"?

Second, the base meta of Seize was "capture and defend" if you could secure your node, THEN you attacked another. If you were ahead, perhaps then you could sit back and play a waiting game or full defense, but victory often went to the stronger offense. And since it encouraged engagement far more than Shatter ever did, THAT is why it was so much more preferred by vets and regulars. Ice in Shatter may as well have been A/S rank hunts where you could hit other people. I agree with you that more incentives would've been great, and we certainly always wanted them. We STILL do.

And the Feast. . . *sighs* I agree that rewards have largely been kinda crappy. Still are. The ONE TIME they offered something that is a bit more in demand by the playerbase, non-PvPers complained and SE rolled right over for them, turning it into an achievement award - an award many who didn't compete in that season grinded in messy ass 8v8s and got before the ones who DID compete got theirs, despite SE saying season competitors would get it first. THEN they wanted the other one too. Lower ranks wiped themselves out by either starting late, or dragging their feet to stay in the running. No, I'm not saying quit your jobs/school and queue the Feast 24/7, but if people were a bit more proactive about queueing for it, I wouldn't have had to make THIS post. This isn't "oh they tuned it only for the hardcore so no one wants to play it". This is "people want the reward, but don't want to compete for it." They want the top 100 prize, but they neither want to be/become good enough for it, or just don't try at all. Copying Overwatch's Golden Gun system? No. People that - again - dragged their feet, weren't good enough to rank, or just started late (which isn't their fault) wanted a token system. Amazingly, SE actually gave it to them, and without somehow circumventing current season rewards. . . and even then people are STILL meandering and making up reasons to do it later. People wanted the ticket system to get past rewards, which would pretty much remove the reason for competing for them. Why fight hard for the mount in S3/4, when you can just put in sub top-100 efforts for a few seasons and get it in like, S9/10? Sorry, this is a competition, not an old raid to be unsynced later.

I have my own reasons for wanting to see either a drastic improvement of the Feast, or a complete crash and burn of what currently exists, if only so SE learns the hard way and does better.

[RiyahArp]

you can have too many buttons, and the meta actually be really simple, you know. The flow of the match was really simple once you got the idea of it.

1. Scatter to get nodes.
2. If you have more than one, pick one to defend.
3. If you don't, take a node from the guy who has more than one.
4. at 10% node, start over.

Thats it. You couldn't even do your "kill people instead of objectives" you like in shatter because the nodes were too far apart. The too many buttons was in just playing your job, the actual meta is basic.

And the feast..dude the only time people cared about the reward was the minions, only because the people who collect minions are the same people who spend hundreds of bucks on pricey merchandise and you literally couldn't get one unless you were the 100 best on a data center. No one cared that they couldn't get the hellhound, or the furniture piece, or the armor. If you didn't get in the top 100, you got an accessory, in other words, you got nothing. They put the weapons in because there was no reward at all for more than 100 players in a data center that you couldn't get outside of ranked. Because we need to spend more time ensuring ten people get something because that makes everyone compete and stuff, despite the fact that even if they did, you'd still see most people lose.

it doesnt matter if they drag their feet, if 1000 ppl per data center play, 900 will not get any reward from ranking below top 100.

[Wintersandman]

So you need incentives because there's a lot more feeling of "I've seen everything" in this game than in other modes, or you need to seriously add maps every six months or so.

This is a completely false statement seeing how the only other MMO to surpass FFXIV numbers had only 3 modes for over 6-7 years with only one map for each with each one thriving. New maps don't change what you define as the meta. It only changes the surroundings. Sure maps will be great but if a mode isn't popular it isn't due to the map solely but due to the mechanics of the mode itself. I disliked slaughter but I know I am the rarity in it and it is probably due because I never truly understood it. FFXIV lacks in defining how the modes work in game. The modes aren't intuitive and it should be more clearly defined by SE on how the modes work.

[Mofafafa]

you probably haven't play enough shatter or actually have friends to queue together and do the "kill people instead of objectives"
I actually won with kill people only strategy in shatters especially in 8v8v8
Hell, actually won with 6 warrior, 2 healer troll party.

3 party per alliance, 1 party focus on killing players and get rid of them away from big nodes / small nodes / whatever.

tho i'm not very sure about Western Data Centre meta. Played a few time in chaos, people just run in and die, free kills.

Though i'm more preferred to playing in Fixed 4s Feast as every match is just intense high level skill competition, unless we are against win traders.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Thats it. You couldn't even do your "kill people instead of objectives" you like in shatter because the nodes were too far apart. The too many buttons was in just playing your job, the actual meta is basic.

That's why you fight AT THE NODES! Come on!

And the feast..dude the only time people cared about the reward was the minions, only because the people who collect minions are the same people who spend hundreds of bucks on pricey merchandise and you literally couldn't get one unless you were the 100 best on a data center. No one cared that they couldn't get the hellhound

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...s-of-the-Feast
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Feast-Tickets
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4489832
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ount....well..

EDIT: Here, have this one too http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3915899

Because we need to spend more time ensuring ten people get something because that makes everyone compete and stuff, despite the fact that even if they did, you'd still see most people lose. . . it doesnt matter if they drag their feet, if 1000 ppl per data center play, 900 will not get any reward from ranking below top 100.

That's COMPETITION. Not everyone wins. Sometimes even the better player loses. Sometimes your best isn't good enough. If only 11 people compete in a season, someone is NOT going to get a top 10 reward. That is literally the nature of competition!

[akamee]

I wonder why everyone complaining. I mean comeon just enjoy the fun side of it. See which FL you prefer and do it, no need to spam rival wings, the other modes are fun too! And I find it way better queues than before 4.0 which is fine for me almost 10-5 minutes must of the prime times, and having few 72 pops after 4.2 hopefully it last for awhile xD. If you guys through these negative thinking and look for the fun side we would have seen larger community.

[OskarXCI]

Yeah, I also had some 72-man matches yesterday. Even Seal Rock. Pure chaos as I'm more used to 24-man Seize.

Not to be pessimistic but I expect 72-man matches to disappear again once people have all the Greek inspired PvP gear they want/need.