Survey: Community Opinions Regarding Parsing/Parsers in Final Fantasy XIV

[Kazgrel]

Legalizing parsers will open the door for parser based discussions.

I mean, what are we even trying to argue about at this point?

Will people be jerks about parsers? Absolutely. We all meet jerks in the game who harass players for "differing playstyles," and all that will change is parsers will be something jerks to talk about. No matter how useful parsers can be. Jerks will be jerks.

So, are we willing to risk giving jerk players ammo? Are we willing to risk the change in community dynamic that would come from parsers being legal?

I'm not!

There will be (and already are) jerks, parsers or not.

[HoodRat]

Nothing to do with your survey. My grievances lies solely with raiders that have little to no clue as to what a percentile even is, yet use them as a basis for judgment. I've learned that actually finding someone in the endgame crowd that actually knows to read the favored parsing website's (not the site's name, mods can find another chew toy lol) datasheets is like finding a unicorn.

I believe the raiders call those types of people "casuals." At least, the raiders I know do.

[Lozza]

I'd like to say to the OP I used the "indifferent" survey though it really doesn't express my opinion on the matter very well at all.

First I should make it known that I believe that games should include all the tools you need to succeed within the game itself. I don't have a problem with things like video guides but rather content that is so obtuse that one has to resort to a guide. In general this isn't what FFXIV is - you can go blind into most content with the reasonable chance of success. The type of content that you are less likely to go into blind is also the type of content most players are more likely to do with a static or with FC/friends.

Because I hold this particular view I have no issue with parsers in high end content (whether purely numerical or not). I believe if you are doing duties found in the high end duty finder then you should have a good idea of what you are getting into already. I also wouldn't be against this content being completely walled off until you have successfully defeated the dummy for the duty. While it doesn't guarantee performance under pressure it does at least weed out those who don't know their rotation.

I am however firmly against parsers in other content, but I do think there needs to be something in place (more than just the open world training dummies) that can help players improve their skills. DPS is the one role where the feedback in this game is non existent. Tank and healer failures are very public - and while they may not necessarily be a player skill issue, SE does allow the examination of gear ingame. (Minimum ilvls for lvlling dungeons and a rethink of how ilvl is calculated as the weapon should be "worth" more is another discussion.) DPS need something to tell them when they are doing a good job or when they need to try harder and ideally I think it should be something the rest of the team can't see. Missing combos, missing skills that have procced - a hint could pop up to tell them.

The issue with numerical parsers, particularly in lvlling content, is that some players who use them don't understand them, some players who use them don't understand what numbers are reasonable for the content they are in, some players who use them focus so hard on the numbers and fail to recognise when other players are contributing to their number even when they might have low DPS. In short, players fail to recognise that in non high-end content it is rarely a single individual who makes the team fail. Granted bad tanks and bad healers can make the group fail faster or more spectacularly but a single weak link can be compensated for by good players. Naturally this leads to players being carried - without any feedback. A number given to them isn't going to help them. Many players feel they shouldn't have to get a PhD in online research in order to play their job reasonably - and for lvlling and story content I don't feel this is unreasonable. The game needs to be giving hints, feedback, and additional training.

Let me re-iterate, high end content is another matter. If you walk into that without your research done, expecting to not be judge and assigned a number I have to ask whether you really want to be there.

To make the whole issue more complicated is the moderation or lack there of in the game. Right now parsers are on a don't ask don't tell basis. That is if you admit to using one to kick someone SE can punish you. It's a straight forward issue, be even with such a straight forward rule set there is still inconsistency in moderation. Some players get hit with a temp bad, others don't. Inconsistency between individual moderators is not a new thing, it happens in ever MMO - but that inconsistency gets worse when you say "ok you can parser but you can't kick or abuse". How do I know - because another MMO I play recently decided that parsers were ok, catch 22 parsers that inspected gear were not ok (the game has no gear inspection tools). Frankly I think this is silly myself if you say parsers are ok, gear inspection should be ok too. Needless to say players are getting bans for running gear inspection when they are merely working backwards from the parsers to figure out the gear must be the reason for the lower numbers.

SE's moderation team already have a not so great record in my eyes because back when I was running around as a dark skinned sun seeker I had a couple of runs with players that called my character n b the whole run. (No I'm not going to expand on that.) The players were reported, SE's response was blacklist them. And this is when the EULA explicitly says players shouldn't be using racist language. So what do you think will happen when someone says "omg your dps sucks go kill yourself" will they get banned? What about "omg your dps sucks uninstall"? Both are unpleasant in their own way. How will a new player take that? Will they lose subs?

When/If they allow parsers they are giving permission for players to comment on it - a lot of players will simply remain silent or be polite about it but the ones who will be rude will be very vocal safe in the knowledge that the company won't be too harsh in their punishment, if they get punished at all.

To finish it all off let me tell you about my daily levelling roulette the other day. I made an alt to experience the road to 60 insanity (and it is crazy fast) and I've been enjoying playing on her. I jump into lvlling roulette as a dps - a lvl26 rogue. I waited 47mins and load into Ifrit. I load in with a lvl60 PLD, a lvl60 DRG, and a lvl39 AST. Things went "bad" immediately. The PLD didn't turn the boss away from the centre, forcing everyone to dance around to his rear. The PLD couldn't keep threat, it was bouncing between me and the AST. The AST and I were the only ones on the nail, and we wiped. Then the insanity starts - apparently all the mess up was my fault. I was autoing I wasn't using trick attack (hint you can't really since no suiton), I didn't use any murdas (you also can't downlvlled to 20). The fact that the PLD couldn't use the basic threat combo on PLD, no that wasn't the problem the problem was the rogue who had two attack skills and wasn't doing proper raid dmg. The abuse continued all the way to the end of the instance. The only reason I stayed was because I didn't fancy another 47 minute wait. Now imagine for an instance that I wasn't a player who knew what my character could do at those lvls or what dps was reasonable for my character in that instance, or what should be expected of a tank or healer or even the other dps. Imagine that was my first run - I've waited nearly an hour to get in, I can't progress my story without doing this, I probably would have copped abuse from the AST for simply watching the cutscene. Do you honestly think a new player wouldn't seriously consider unsubbing?

Rude, bad players will always be rude and bad. We don't need to give them permission to be that and we don't need to muddy the waters of support and moderation by allowing parsers in lvlling content. Yes something is needed to give feedback and help players - particularly dps - improve. But if SE's response to individuals using racist language is just to blacklist do you honestly think they will do anything to those abuse players based on poor parser numbers? Yes SE needs to invest in their support and moderation teams, yes they need to ensure that consistent decisions are made, but the solution to all these things is not simple and it's not quick. The system, as it stands now, would not really survive the permission to use parsers in lvlling content. One might argue that permission to use parsers in high end content is much the same as giving permission to use them in lvlling content. However I believe external parsers should remain "illegal" and that SE should implement separate solutions for high end duties and for lvlling.

[Kacho_Nacho]

*I'm having a bad FM day. If I missed anything, I apologize in advance.*

Thank you Kacho! As usual your signature is adorable.

Thank you! I like to bring a smile to people's faces with my signatures.

Off top: "Celebrate" is a test of the intended look of my soon to be released Kacho Nacho the Web Comic reboot.

I appreciate the answers and first off I'd like to apologize if it seems like this could be aimed at anyone performing at the current 70th percentile. If you're doing anything like that first off you and I are right there together and second of all you have a base understanding of the classes you're playing and while you may not have mastered when to weave oGCDs or something you aren't a no-melee RDM or an Ice Mage.

*nods* I did kind of feel like it was an attack at first. You see, I used to raid in another game; but, life threw me a curve, and I am now more casual than anything else. So, I'm a bit sensitive sometimes over my performance. Now, I threw out 70% because that's a typical goal of mine but really my performance is likely in the average range.

Don't misunderstand, if you don't already parse I still think an integrated parser would help you even passively as it would help anyone with a basic amount of care about the players they're grouped with which I'm certain you have.

I think your understanding of how parsers should be used is ultimately very similar to mine. I have no desire to harass someone about their lacking dps, even in a PF specifically stating something like "bring big **** dps" I don't think there is room for harassment over performance. Rather in an appropriate situation if a parser parser gave info someone could use to improve I would point it out to them. Unless it had some kind of effect on whether or not we're clearing in a reasonable time (no 45min Ala Mhigo runs pls) I wouldn't ever even vote someone out for not following that advice.

Yeah, I have no desire to harass anyone either, and I agree, parsers can be a wonderful tool for self-improvement. Yet, I can't help but think of all the times when I observed people refusing to do key mechanics because it would hurt their precious dps. Or the times I have observed some really ugly exchanges between people fighting for the first thru third rankings of top damage dealers. People can be such... poop heads.

*sigh*

It all comes down to a simple question. Would the implementation of parsers really help players improve their game play or would it lead to more clashes between players due to their innately human competitive natures?

I'm sure there are people who would misuse this system were it implemented just as there are people who abuse the current system. Harassment will never be tolerated by SE though and the potential for harassment should not mean that we don't give a feature a chance. You can harass someone in party chat but we aren't all communicating via pvp pre-made phrases after all.

I hope this makes you feel better in some way about what I posted. I would never condone harassment.

It did!

/hug

[MoroMurasaki]

Off top: "Celebrate" is a test of the intended look of my soon to be released Kacho Nacho the Web Comic reboot.

I look forward to it! I'm a sucker for media from/about this game as (imo) it translates very well. Bonus points considering I'm sure it's going to be sweet enough to give me tooth problems.

*nods* I did kind of feel like it was an attack at first. You see, I used to raid in another game; but, life threw me a curve, and I am now more casual than anything else. So, I'm a bit sensitive sometimes over my performance. Now, I threw out 70% because that's a typical goal of mine but really my performance is likely in the average range.

For people who aren't Kacho... you can probably ignore this bit? More personal/less relevant.

Even though I've said it I apologize again. I definitely should have more specificity in any of my posts that become.... ahem... more passionate I suppose? lol

Short version I know that I'm a pretty aggressive/assertive person even in text. Not to bring too much of my irl business into things but I'm a woman in my 20's doing a project management consulting job typiclly held by an older man. My day-to-day life sort of requires I constantly over-assert myself or I'm just never taken seriously. I'm sure this bleeds over into my leisure time. In person this is mitigated by the fact that I look like I'm not old enough to drink so it sort of takes that level of... umpf? To keep from my peers/clients from dismissing my ideas before considering them.

That being said the percentage here that you fall into is somewhat irrelavent because you have a goal for improvmemt and are trying. If you were running something and someone offered you advice about your class I can't imagine you responding with "stfu go fly a kite you dont pay my sub" whether a parser backed up what was being said or not. You'd likely look at what was said, respond politely and perhaps give it a try if you thought it might hold some merit because you're a reasonable person.

I also can't imagine you joining content in which you'd find yourself quickly outside your comfort zone without perhaps making a learning party/expressing to the people you're running with that this thing might be a stretch for you.

Yeah, I have no desire to harass anyone either, and I agree, parsers can be a wonderful tool for self-improvement. Yet, I can't help but think of all the times when I observed people refusing to do key mechanics because it would hurt their precious dps. Or the times I have observed some really ugly exchanges between people fighting for the first thru third rankings of top damage dealers. People can be such... poop heads.

*sigh*

It all comes down to a simple question. Would the implementation of parsers really help players improve their game play or would it lead to more clashes between players due to their innately human competitive natures?

Ultimately this is the question we're at we're just coming to different answers. Ironically I think I'm having a bit more faith in the good of the playerbase than you are and that's okay but it does mean that I think we're never going to be able to agree on this 100% without it being implimented and one of us being correct.

This isn't a copout, I'm sure what you've seen has been some real poop-head-ish behavior, it's just that I think those people are enough of a minority that the good a parser would do will outpace the bad those guys might spread by a long shot.

It did!

/hug

/hug

I hope you don't mind reading all this rant. I was going to just respond on discord if I could but I realized I didn't have you on there. If you've got one and I haven't scared you off feel free to add me, name is in my signature. Also I know you have a million offers but if you ever need someone to run anything with I'm here and happy to!

[Ametrine]

There will be (and already are) jerks, parsers or not.

Yes. I literally said exactly that. So let me try again.

I really do think allowing parser discussions and use would open the gates for people to be jerks in ways they weren't before.

I do firmly believe parser use will increase hostility, because them being a bannable offense is going to, by the very nature of being a *bannable* offense, stop players from talking about parses.

I'm just saying that without knowing how many players currently hold their tongues to protect themselves, we simply can't know how different (positively or negatively) the landscape of FFXIV would be after allowing parsers.

And, I'm not willing to open that floodgate.

[Deithwen]

Hello Hyomin,

Did you get interesting data from the polls ?

Looking forward to seeing the results and thank you for making this !