Survey: Community Opinions Regarding Parsing/Parsers in Final Fantasy XIV

[RiyahArp]

Me in Discord saying "that X guy is doing lousy DPS, lets kick him" and then doing a silent group vote kick is perfectly allowed because different play styles.

Is that really better?

But you're assuming people are going to not do this anyways if we had an official parser. People have no obligation to mentor others in the situations where you'd get kicked for doing low DPS, and if anything they might get angrier because now there is no excuse; you have a parser, how can you not know?

Just today i had two new players in trial roulette. One was menagerie; the healer was new, and was so overwhelmed they didnt use healer lb3 to get everyone up before a wipe. We told him to use it in chat, but after he said he was so overwhlemed he didn't use it. My co tank left over that. One was susano hard, and the healer was bad (possible jump potion user), and the nin was goign on and on about how he wasted people's time, to the point we had to kick him. I mean, I winced knowing that healer was listening to him. I'm not sure people will be kind to people with low dps with legal parsing, where at least they are silent under threat.

Like, I've had and seen people just being cruel to others in Limsa. A lot of this is on whether you trust people to act well when the threats are gone. I don't know if they will act in the way you expect.

[MoroMurasaki]

snip

But why would harrassment become okay if parsers were legal?

If someone is rude enough to you that it warrants reporting them they should be reported for the bad thing they did (harrassing you) not the neutral thing (parsing)... Parsing by it's self is never a net negative and the negative behavior caused by parsing will still be reportable. If you report someone for parsing right now you are, in my opinion, using a cop-out. If that cop-out were removed and we had to judge people by the way they handled info gained from parsing instead of just for the act it's self I don't see how that could be a bad thing. Good people could use it to offer help and rude people could get reported for being rude. Stop hamstringging the people who only want to use this 'power' for good.

[RiyahArp]

But why would harrassment become okay if parsers were legal?.

This is assuming people are getting banned for harassment, and not that the real reason is admitting to parser use. I don't think the examples I gave are ban worthy, nor would anyone report the person for doing them. It's not ban worthy to kick someone and say "your dps sucks, git gud scrub" even though it's rude. The parser use is probably the teeth that gets people bitten. It's just, well, what good is it even? No one is going to do anything good in an instance with a parser; doign good dps is just doing your job. Its going to be used mostly for people failing, and with friends or statics it can be ok, but dear god, with randoms...

[Bourne_Endeavor]

This is assuming people are getting banned for harassment, and not that the real reason is admitting to parser use. I don't think the examples I gave are ban worthy, nor would anyone report the person for doing them. It's not ban worthy to kick someone and say "your dps sucks, git gud scrub" even though it's rude. The parser use is probably the teeth that gets people bitten. It's just, well, what good is it even? No one is going to do anything good in an instance with a parser; doign good dps is just doing your job. Its going to be used mostly for people failing, and with friends or statics it can be ok, but dear god, with randoms...

Is it any better they get kicked silently or the entire group abruptly disbands, thus the person has no idea what they're doing wrong? I firmly believe many players have no idea their DPS is that low. Sure, rude remarks will fly, but it's up to the individual person to filter that out. That rude "git gud scrub" person will remain rude without a parser. They'll just omit the fact they're parsing. Look no further than your own examples. No ACT yet rude people remained rude. Allowing parsers won't suddenly upswing the amount of jerk people. Granted, I'll admit I don't find being told "your DPS sucks" that big of a deal, assuming it's in the appropriate content.

Now if the person doesn't care, well, they have no business joining a party and wasting people's time.

As for the harassment part. Perhaps SE should work on actually moderating better if that's the case. Considering people have received warnings for shouting "fuck" in say chat, I think the GMs could manage.

[Tridus]

But you're assuming people are going to not do this anyways if we had an official parser. People have no obligation to mentor others in the situations where you'd get kicked for doing low DPS, and if anything they might get angrier because now there is no excuse; you have a parser, how can you not know?

There's lots of assumptions here in general. But no, I was asking why kicking someone with no explanation whatsoever is better than telling them they have poor DPS. At least in the latter case they have some indication as to what's going on. Being kicked without a word sucks. Been there, done that, wouldn't do it to anyone. You wind up not knowing what you did wrong. I was a newbie tank at the time and it was really confidence crushing. Fortunately I was an experienced player and knew where to go to ask for advice, because clearly I was doing *something* wrong.

But by SE's rules, that is considered okay while telling them they have low DPS is not. That's not a stance I agree with, having been on the wrong end of the "allowed" behavior.

Just today i had two new players in trial roulette. One was menagerie; the healer was new, and was so overwhelmed they didnt use healer lb3 to get everyone up before a wipe. We told him to use it in chat, but after he said he was so overwhlemed he didn't use it. My co tank left over that. One was susano hard, and the healer was bad (possible jump potion user), and the nin was goign on and on about how he wasted people's time, to the point we had to kick him. I mean, I winced knowing that healer was listening to him. I'm not sure people will be kind to people with low dps with legal parsing, where at least they are silent under threat.

Like, I've had and seen people just being cruel to others in Limsa. A lot of this is on whether you trust people to act well when the threats are gone. I don't know if they will act in the way you expect.

That's rough. We just had a lousy World of Darkness Alliance roulette, with two wipes on the first boss. Some people bailed after that and the finger pointing got started, but a couple of us decided to try and explain what to do for everyone else since clearly there were issues there. It wasn't a pretty run, but we did get it done with no more wipes. None of those finger pointers were talking about DPS, so it's not like the ban on parser talk prevents that sort of behavior.

Community standards come down to the community itself, in the end. If we don't want finger pointing harassment (parser related or the "stop turning the boss/standing in X/not using Eusna fast enough/etc" variety) to be a thing, we need to both ruthlessly oppose it whenever it pops up, and also set a better example. That falls on everyone. It's done at a smaller scale in FCs and statics all time, so it can be done on a wider scale too. Would it work out that way? I have no idea. But I don't think the "it's all fine now and would go to hell if parsers came about" predictions are accurate.

It's good to be cautious, but hiding information that's so vital to progression except from those who know how to get it anyway isn't a great solution.

(In my WoW guild, we had a real problem with lack of dispels. One time I decided to fix it by running a contest where by if anyone could beat me on dispels on a fight that was heavily dependent on them, I'd pay for their flasks for the next raid. Fortunatley I was an elixir alchemist, because that got real expensive...)

[Ametrine]

Legalizing parsers will open the door for parser based discussions.

I mean, what are we even trying to argue about at this point?

Will people be jerks about parsers? Absolutely. We all meet jerks in the game who harass players for "differing playstyles," and all that will change is parsers will be something jerks to talk about. No matter how useful parsers can be. Jerks will be jerks.

So, are we willing to risk giving jerk players ammo? Are we willing to risk the change in community dynamic that would come from parsers being legal?

I'm not!

[akaneakki]

So, are we willing to risk giving jerk players ammo? Are we willing to risk the change in community dynamic that would come from parsers being legal?
I'm not!

You have to explain to me how the community will change with a parser being legal. Is it something about if a parser being legal would make people get less groups for content, being locked out? Like if they aren't included because they play bad? Is that it? I would like to know this.

[Hestzhyen]

So, are we willing to risk giving jerk players ammo? Are we willing to risk the change in community dynamic that would come from parsers being legal?

I'm not!

You said yourself that jerks will be jerks without parsing. There are jerks who already parse. There are jerks who just want something to be angry about, whether they're parsing or not. There are jerks who can't parse even if they wanted to since they play on the PS4. None of them need "ammo"; if they're looking for something to harass with, they'll use anything at their disposal- DPS numbers are just one of many available tools. I believe that making parsing legit would only increase the instances of people's numbers getting used to sling mud, not the actual rate at which people get harassed.

I want parsers to be legal so I can offer to share people's numbers in public EX/Savage runs without fear of being banned. I never share everyone's, only those who ask. I use it to keep track of who I should buff with damage cards as AST and my own performance so I can improve. I can say with confidence that I wouldn't suddenly become a bully because I could admit to parsing in game without fear of retribution. Why deny a useful tool because some scummy people abuse it? Step up enforcement for bullying and harassment and legitimize constructive criticism and self-improvement instead.

[MoroMurasaki]

So, are we willing to risk giving jerk players ammo? Are we willing to risk the change in community dynamic that would come from parsers being legal?

I'm not!

I am, 100%.

This is a situation where risk doesn't outweigh reward and I say that as a casual player starting to get involved with more serious content aka the demographic that is almost assuredly going to catch the biggest amount of 'jerks being jerks' if parsing were legalized much less implimented ingame.

[Khanscott]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this statement. Care to clarify? Because if it's an insinuation that people misuse statistics, that occurs on both sides or every argument under the sun. If it's an insinuation that my survey will not be largely representative, then I am already aware. The OP has that disclaimer in there three times. ^^;; But clarification would be much appreciated.

Nothing to do with your survey. My grievances lies solely with raiders that have little to no clue as to what a percentile even is, yet use them as a basis for judgment. I've learned that actually finding someone in the endgame crowd that actually knows to read the favored parsing website's (not the site's name, mods can find another chew toy lol) datasheets is like finding a unicorn.