Why the hate with endgame fights?

[KaivaC]

At this point, both casuals and raiders have had lies and slander made about them by the other side. Outliers of one end call the others lazy and unwilling to work; outliers on the other end call their opponents "toxic" and "unwilling to treat onlookers with basic respect." Let's dispense with both here and now: those are outliers on both ends.

Agreed. There are such things as toxic raiders and there are such things as toxic casuals. It's an issue on both ends of the spectrum, though not nearly as bad or elitist as some may have players believe.

So much this sentiment. Bads are bad no matter how competent they are. Most people are not bad people though. Neither the entire casual or raiding community is a cesspool, rather both have bad eggs.

Agreed, like above. Also, thumbs up for the mention. Made me smile

My main goal in continuing this conversation is that I noticed quite a bit of anger/frustration towards people earlier in the thread who stated that they avoided raiding due to their perceptions of a toxic community. Some went to imply that these people were lying or had ulterior motives. I just don't see how this helps. Acting in this manner does nothing to try to understand how their perception developed, and worse yet, probably just helps to affirm their perceptions. I really wish folks would try more often to engage in a good spirited way to help people see past their first impressions.

I feel like this also falls in line with 'don't judge a book by its cover'. A few days ago, we've had a player jump into the forums and just outright say they quit because of terrible leveling experiences with other players. And this is outside of endgame - these are just leveling/MSQ dungeons. And I don't like that they felt what their experiences were gave them the expectation that this is how FFXIV was going to be for the rest of their time here. If they had come back, they would've seen that they had quite a bit of support to show that the community isn't like that.

It's the same here. The discussions here are not indications of a toxic community. As mentioned before, if one actually reads through the discussions (which, at this point, is a daunting task and I personally never expected this thread to go beyond 50 posts), this is not the sign of a toxic community. Nobody, not even in the discussion between myself and Bobs, have devolved into back and forth pointless attacks, though we did definitely engage in an argument. There are conflicting opinions here, but that in itself is no way an indication of a toxic community.

To be honest, if you really want to see something turning truly toxic, there is something called a 'Zexy' thread. Now those, you can make an argument for. Though to be fair, I actually haven't seen her posting on the forums in quite some time.

Sure there is... long term goals. Something this game lacks outside relic weapons. Hopefully Eureka comes through and remedies this.
You don't need content with a million mechanics for it to be fun either. That's just what our devs choose to keep churning out.

To a point, I agree. And I also have respectful hopes for Eureka as well. But with mechanics, it isn't as though they don't make sense. They all serve their purpose and challenge the party. I don't feel with the current raid tier that there are too many mechanics. Everything once you hit O3S can feel overwhelming, yeah, but it's not something that is overwhelming to the point that most players couldn't handle were they to practice.

I wasn't here when ARR originally dropped, so I don't know how small the skill gap was compared to now, and you know, to each their own, but I found most of what I've tried to be very accessible. Even O4S, though it was extremely difficult for me to do, but it wasn't overwhelming to the point that it stopped being fun. And lore-wise, the attacks that these fights throw out at you make sense to me...even though all Savage fights are essentially exaggerated recreations of what you fought in the story-mode version.

My issue doesn't tend to be the healing itself. I pretty much could solo heal A9S.

I would mess a mech and wipe the raid. Best example: In O2S when we had to go to the side without a marker, while having the 2 stack markers. Even with the camera pulled all the way back, I couldn't always see which way to go until it was too late and I would cause a wipe.

After a few of those I mostly stopped even trying.

Sorry it took me like a day to finally respond to this. It's been a rough day between school and late night work D:

I agree with the poster that was below yours - it's very difficult to see the safe spot if the raid agrees to put the markers at the edges, rather than closer to the middle where the wagon wheels are sitting. I struggled with myself immensely, mostly because when it was first released, nobody really knew the range of safe zones. If it helps, if there are issues with memorizing what mechanic is about to come, would it be possible to have a teamspeak or discord up and have somebody calling out the next mechanic about to happen? I found that helpful in Shinryu Ex because I have a really nasty habit of tunnel vision in that fight - I get focused on one mechanic that I completely forget that another mechanic is just about to go off. For example, Hypernova about to explode while I'm DPS'ing a tail and I'm not in a puddle to protect me from a near insta-kill.

[MoroMurasaki]

If it helps, if there are issues with memorizing what mechanic is about to come, would it be possible to have a teamspeak or discord up and have somebody calling out the next mechanic about to happen? I found that helpful in Shinryu Ex because I have a really nasty habit of tunnel vision in that fight - I get focused on one mechanic that I completely forget that another mechanic is just about to go off. For example, Hypernova about to explode while I'm DPS'ing a tail and I'm not in a puddle to protect me from a near insta-kill.

I had this same issue and used the same remedy with Shin EX. I was flubbing things left and right because I was so paranoid about getting caught by an icicle then someone in our FC offered to call out the sides of the platforms on which the icicles were coming for and that alleviated a lot of my stress.

Now (and I say now as in like a few weeks ago being the last time I did that fight) I've developed enough of a sense for the icicles to call them out for other people in PUGs.

I would say all the help/offers of help/suggestions on how to better enjoy endgame that are being thrown around are ultimately the best evidence for a healthy raiding community that I've seen. If I needed convincing before reading this thread I wouldn't any more. The idea that it's brought anything but transparency and realism to the ffxiv raiding community just seems a bit silly at this point.

Thank you for starting it Kavia!