Why the hate with endgame fights?

[Bobs]

Still have not give a better way to describe the Bullet Hell End Game that is FF14 currently.

plural noun: semantics
"such quibbling over semantics may seem petty stuff"

[F_Maximillian]

Enrage timers are necessary and the lack of enrage timers leads to some pretty.. interesting results. A game I used to love dearly (tera online) used to have enrage timers on most fights similar to what we have now in higher tier content on FF. In recent years since it's gone f2p they removed alot of the enrage timers in fights. I came back to try it again after being away for some years and found that most content lacked enrage timers. The impact that this had on the community is definitely a negative one. Before, people would try to dodge and do their best to keep uptime and make sure they were up to par because dying repeatedly was expensive (due to breaking crystals or used up crystal binds (crystals were basically materia but better and crystalbinds were a one-time shield against breaking on death, very costly for each back then)) and too much death meant you were met with an enrage timer.

I came back to the game as a tank and healer and I'd say the majority of my time spent on healer was resurrecting people who didn't care to dodge or try to do mechanics. Fights took so long as a tank that I found myself getting tired of the same boss wacking at me without a break, with some fights taking upwards of 30 minutes. The death penalty was alleviated quite a bit by crystalbinds being pumped into the economy to the point where a freshly capped player could afford a month's worth of them with the gold they had from finishing the story quest. There's no enrage timer so people don't bother trying to not die or play well. The standard in some of the harder content is to bring two healers so you can just keep resurrecting people because you can just outlast boss fights. This may sound fun to you but it was a very un-fun experience being a resurrection dispenser for people who felt like giving 5% of their all while playing and expecting me to pick up the slack.

People really would stack tanks and healers to just chain resurrect people if we had no enrage timers, as is the very thought of paying attention to the game and completing mechanics while doing decent damage is largely considered heresy. I'd like for you to see what happens if people could take all the time in the world to finish a fight, I've seen firsthand how that turns out and it's sad to watch and even sadder to be a part of. Remove enrage timers and you'll have even more problems finding groups as a dps because people will be stacking resurrections to just ignore things, things taking considerably longer than they already do (that's actually possible surprisingly), overall group coordination to be tossed out the window for "just keep ressing if someone dies", and most likely an increase in "toxicity (a.k.a the favored buzzword of the forums)" from people getting frustrated that everything takes so long. You may cite the death weakness as deterrent enough for people to not keep dying but considering it no longer decreases your hp you can live and just take longer with minimal effort and a permanent "beyond death" debuff.

You said Try the content, not clear.

My previous post indicate that it typically just ends in a cluster F because people get angry and leave. (Probably because its just a bunch of instant death running around bullet hell stuff instead of actual mmo stuff).

I've cleared os1, os2. If you really must know.

Bullet hell games throw tons of bullets at you and make you rely on twitch reflexes reacting to random damage coming your way. Mechanics in ff14 are heavily scripted dances with clear cut and precise ways to handle them that you know ahead of time once you start learning the fight. It's the furthest thing from a bullet hell game possible unless you're going in blind, have extremely bad reaction time, and are unable to remember a basic sequence of events. In that case the fault lies with the one who lacks the capacity, not the game.

All an enrage timer does is essentially make things a mandatory speed run. Can't clear in 9mins 45 seconds you lose. Even if you could clear in 9 mins and 59 seconds. Just that little bit slower.

It only further promotes the super fast / rush everyrging culture many people complain about so much. Be quite happy if they scrapped them all.

It just a Speed run in a slightly different disguise and they were supposed to die end of 1.2. Where you had to do sub 17 minute av and cc runs to get relic salts when 25 mins was already considered a Speed run.

You wouldn't be happy getting wacked by a boss for 30+ minutes while you watch your multiple healers resurrecting repeatedly until the boss gives up, drops a treasure chest at your feet, and walks away.

[Dzian]

an enrage timer is foremost a way to gate content behind the gear spiral and to make sure people take DDs with them .

All an enrage timer does is essentially make things a mandatory speed run. Can't clear in 9mins 45 seconds you lose. Even if you could clear in 9 mins and 59 seconds. Just that little bit slower.

It only further promotes the super fast / rush everyrging culture many people complain about so much. Be quite happy if they scrapped them all.

It just a Speed run in a slightly different disguise and they were supposed to die end of 1.2. Where you had to do sub 17 minute av and cc runs to get relic salts when 25 mins was already considered a Speed run.

[ViolaCrossfire]

All an enrage timer does is essentially make things a mandatory speed run.
It only further promotes the super fast / rush everyrging culture many people complain about so much. Be quite happy if they scrapped them all.

That's litterally all a dps is good for. Their very mark on the fight. Healers and tanks already have their own enrages. Namely the health checks and tank busters. Removing enrages is basically saying I don't want to be challenged on my job. And before you say that's what dps check are for, what is holding you from doing half your job doing the rest of the fight?

[Bobs]

Snip

Bullet Hell games typically have a set of mechanics that are always the same and repeat. So the way to play them is to learn the pattern then optimize, similar to how people learn the boss fights in FF14 (very similar).

[Adeacia]

When I first started really messing with Savage, it was A9S. I'm aware it's one of the easier ones but for me I hadn't really done anything Savage (other than A5S which I nearly cleared) before so it was really hard for me.

Once I learned the fight it got dull. I was just going through a set of motions. I knew what move to use at what point and it just got boring. I don't want to follow a script like that.

I do want more random things to happen.

[KaivaC]

Anything to not talk about the topic. Right?

I'm glad you learned something about syntax today.

I have quite literally been responding to a huge chunk of posts in my own thread. So I'm not sure where you are getting off that I'm not responding to my own topic. But since you want to assume I'm trying to avoid my own topic...

Still have not give a better way to describe the Bullet Hell End Game that is FF14 currently.

plural noun: semantics
"such quibbling over semantics may seem petty stuff"

You have not even given a good example of how bullet hell games even correlate to FF14 endgame. They aren't the same. Dodge this attack, hurt the boss...that's like every combat game ever (outside of FPS and RPGs). Which brings me to...

Bullet Hell games typically have a set of mechanics that are always the same and repeat. So the way to play them is to learn the pattern then optimize, similar to how people learn the boss fights in FF14 (very similar).

Most games featuring combat of a sort are like this. If you really want to break it down, Mario does this. 'Don't run into a Goomba unless you have the Star Invincibility...jump on their heads. Watch for that moment when chain chomp stops bouncing on the ground, wait for him to try to strike in your general direction, and dodge/avoid as appropriate. Jump on bomb-omb to disable it and then react as appropriate before it explodes.' Pretty much all Mario enemies have a pattern. Same with 2D Castlevania. Watch for enemy attack patterns, react as necessary. If your argument is that the connection between FF14 and bullet hell is 'learn the pattern, optimize, repeat', platformers, some FPS, some RPGs/action RPGs, and a huge swath of other MMOs do the exact same thing.

Why don't you show me the bullet hell equivalent of the following, since you are being very adamant about bullet hell:

All Savage raids: unavoidable damage, tank busters, healing

O1S - fireballs + ice slide
healers having to deal with Charbydis
intentional boss positioning for his clamps, especially after the one he uses from the edge of the arena

O2S - double stack markers
placing down tentacles
double stack markers while running
-100G
the gravity mechanic itself

O3S - Critical Hit
All variations of Queen's Waltz
The entirety of the Library Phase
Animal Farm
Iron Giant + Ninja phase
Reapers + Tethers phase

All an enrage timer does is essentially make things a mandatory speed run. Can't clear in 9mins 45 seconds you lose. Even if you could clear in 9 mins and 59 seconds. Just that little bit slower.

It only further promotes the super fast / rush everyrging culture many people complain about so much. Be quite happy if they scrapped them all.

It just a Speed run in a slightly different disguise and they were supposed to die end of 1.2. Where you had to do sub 17 minute av and cc runs to get relic salts when 25 mins was already considered a Speed run.

Originally, I was going to dispute this. But now that I think about it, in a sense, perhaps you're right in that trial fights are similar to speed runs. While the fights themselves do promote both efficiency and quickness, I wouldn't say it promotes players rushing. The fights promote optimization in a timed window - basically, they test if you really know how to play your job. Trust me, a lot of us who have been through some difficult wipes can tell when players are rushing - they make silly mistakes in frustration, show that they are incapable when under added pressure from a mechanic/series of mechanics, and/or screw up a rotation and are unable to recover from that.

[KaivaC]

When I first started really messing with Savage, it was A9S. I'm aware it's one of the easier ones but for me I hadn't really done anything Savage (other than A5S which I nearly cleared) before so it was really hard for me.

Once I learned the fight it got dull. I was just going through a set of motions. I knew what move to use at what point and it just got boring. I don't want to follow a script like that.

I do want more random things to happen.

Have you fought beyond O1S? I'd say that O3S is quite the challenge, even with her script with mechanics changing depending on where exactly she is.

[Adeacia]

Have you fought beyond O1S? I'd say that O3S is quite the challenge, even with her script with mechanics changing depending on where exactly she is.

I have cleared O1S, which even I found to be rather easy so you know that difficulty was really low, and saw enrage a few times on O2S but never bothered to get around to clearing it.

It's hard for me since I have a depression issue. I make one mistake and suddenly feel like I don't belong there and stop doing it entirely. I never cleared A10S for the same reason.

[Zojha]

Enrage timers are necessary and the lack of enrage timers leads to some pretty.. interesting results.

...in a trinity game.

Enrage timers exist to limit the power of healers - Games without healers don't need (and typically don't have) them, because when a boss does damage to you in such games, it sticks. It doesn't just get erased, nor can you erase death with res, which means "coming back" from a mistake is only possible by not making further mistakes, the margin for which decreases with every mistake you make. No matter what, you can only take X failures and if you take longer, that only means you need to dodge more stuff, you still don't get to fail more often than X.

Healers however allow you to artificially drag fights on, because the standard punishment for failure is damage and healers exist to undo damage, so if they have resources to spare beyond their un-avoidable damage gimmicks, they can use them to trivialize mechanics, provided the mechanics allow them to. You can't just take X failures, you can take as many failures as your healer's resources will allow and those often can be regenerated.
If healers are relatively weak, that's not much of an issue. When you buff them to heck and back in order to make them more satisfactory to play however, you will need mechanics healers cannot trivialize. One-shots are the soft form of that, because the healer needs to use relatively expensive raises and will expend his resources much faster, DPS checks and enrages the hard form, because healers have very little influence on that.

When you give tanks and healers considerable damage on their own, they also have the nice bonus effect of making DPS actually mandatory in the same way healers and tanks are. Otherwise, the requirements would be only one-sided: DPS need tanks and healers by design, but tanks and healers don't need DPS by design. That pretty much is the tape and glue that keeps the trinity together: You make checks that absolutely require tanks, checks that absolutely require healers and checks to absolutely require DPS.
A lot of balancing issues between the roles would become apparent if roles had to stand on their own merits, rather than being mandated.