Just played Final Fantasy XI

[Vaer]

With the caveat that I don't think these numbers are actually accurate, but they're all that we have, let's compare to how the FFXIV census works. Again, "active player" means someone who finished the level 65 dungeon. That's halfway through the latest expansion. Around 25%, generously, of players are halfway through WotG according to this data. But WotG is really new, so let's look at ToAU instead - there, it's maybe 40% in 2009 and closer to 30% in 2008. Even CoP in 2009 is basically 50/50 for who's at least halfway through. By the FFXIV metric of "active players" those would reduce FFXI's 500k to 125k, 200k, or 250k, respectively. All of which are well below the 525k listed on the FFXIV census. FFXIV is still clearly the more popular game by a wide margin.

Not that I disagree, but expansion clears is a weird way of comparing it.

In XI it wasn't required to finish storylines to hit max level, you could get to max level without finishing CoP, ToAU, it just made it more annoying and a lot of the areas and features unlock midway through. Due to how long it takes to level back then, I would consider even someone who is still 51+ and at least Rank 5-6 (when the first arc ends and dynamis/zilart unlocks) to be an active player.

In XIV you can't get to max level without going through the expansion so it's kind of a weird comparison.

Completing an expansion fully in XI is somewhat like participating in XIV endgame and we all know how low the participation rate of savage is. It'd be like looking up the amount of T13 or O12S clears right now which most people probably don't even bother doing even though it is nerfed and saying XIV isn't popular based on those numbers.

Different games for different times honestly. The MMO genre was relatively niche back then when XI was in it's prime compared to now (XIV is a mass market MMO, it is designed to get as many people to play as possible, in XI if you didn't like the content they put out it was literally "deal with it") so even hitting 500k back then is pretty good. The mechanics of XI were acceptable in 2004, but they just wouldn't fly in 2018. People in XIV lose their minds over hunts, they would last about 10 minutes in old XI.

[Dzian]

I think this data actually proves my point. This data is from 2008 and 2009, and Chains of Promathia came out in 2004.

While I don't dispute cop being old by the time of the census I linked. The important fact that should be noted is that it was still relevant content at that time.

In xiv it would be like taking omega savage clears in 4.1 even though it's old content from a previous patch it's still relevant.

However if you took omega clears in 5.0 the data wouldn't be accurate as many would be unsynced clears. Like the clear rate for coil shot up towards the end of heavensward.

[SilverObi]

I'd argue that experiences vary just as much in XIV as they did in XI. I have yet to meet the mythical ice mage, or see the overwhelming toxicity of elitists in every type of content. The ease of content (not including the sharp upward curve in some endgame) does attract the bigger audience yes and the arguable amount of attention paid to tuning fights and such can lead to an overall homogeneous experience for a larger amount of the playerbase, but I wouldn't say that was a flaw with XI per se. XI's flaws were not updating the systems that were unreasonably greedy with a player's time and the refusal to share information with the players themselves until recently. As I've said before, I'll defend XI to the death for what it did right but also crucify it for the things it did wrong. I just don't see player experiences varying as one of them

And it's possible I missed where someone said that XI is the more popular game? XIV doesn't need people defending it, it's already proven it can stand on its own two feet despite its continual problems. XI was the most profitable game by SE ever up until recently but that's through sheer lifespan and not much else. Anyone saying that XIV is not as popular as XI was is incorrect obviously, but the point of contention is actually about quality. And that of course varies on player experience

[Talraen]

Not that I disagree, but expansion clears is a weird way of comparing it.

In XI it wasn't required to finish storylines to hit max level, you could get to max level without finishing CoP, ToAU, it just made it more annoying and a lot of the areas and features unlock midway through. Due to how long it takes to level back then, I would consider even someone who is still 51+ and at least Rank 5-6 (when the first arc ends and dynamis/zilart unlocks) to be an active player.

In XIV you can't get to max level without going through the expansion so it's kind of a weird comparison.

Completing an expansion fully in XI is somewhat like participating in XIV endgame and we all know how low the participation rate of savage is. It'd be like looking up the amount of T13 or O12S clears right now which most people probably don't even bother doing even though it is nerfed and saying XIV isn't popular based on those numbers.

Different games for different times honestly. The MMO genre was relatively niche back then when XI was in it's prime compared to now (XIV is a mass market MMO, it is designed to get as many people to play as possible, in XI if you didn't like the content they put out it was literally "deal with it") so even hitting 500k back then is pretty good. The mechanics of XI were acceptable in 2004, but they just wouldn't fly in 2018. People in XIV lose their minds over hunts, they would last about 10 minutes in old XI.

I agree, it's not a good comparison. However, neither is comparing the 525k from the FFXIV census to the 500k historic high from FFXI. How do we actually compare the games' popularity fairly? I have no idea. But I don't think there's any evidence that FFXI was ever as popular as FFXIV is now, yet I regularly see people claiming this based on the FFXIV census number.

And yes, I agree that completing an expansion in FFXI is roughly equivalent to participating in FFXIV endgame, and I think the reason is that you really need a static to do either. Yes, it was possible to PUG your way through FFXI content, just as some people do that for savage, but that doesn't seem to be the way most people do it. The thing is, the fact that this is equivalent is exactly what was bad about FFXI. My whole point here was that FFXI seems great if you were one of the lucky ones who could do that. Casual Final Fantasy fans want to finish the story, they don't necessarily want to have to form a cohesive unit with people online to do that.

I also agree that MMOs used to be niche, but I think you're wrong about the reaction today. I think if you released an FFXI-style game right now, many of the people who loved FFXI back then would be happy to go right back to that style of game. The difference is that WoW attracted a huge number of people to the genre who would not play FFXI. But they wouldn't have done so in 2004, either. And they didn't.

While I don't dispute cop being old by the time of the census I linked. The important fact that should be noted is that it was still relevant content at that time.

In xiv it would be like taking omega savage clears in 4.1 even though it's old content from a previous patch it's still relevant.

However if you took omega clears in 5.0 the data wouldn't be accurate as many would be unsynced clears. Like the clear rate for coil shot up towards the end of heavensward.

Again, the fact that we're comparing endgame content in FFXIV to story content in FFXI is exactly the problem I'm talking about.

I'd argue that experiences vary just as much in XIV as they did in XI. I have yet to meet the mythical ice mage, or see the overwhelming toxicity of elitists in every type of content. The ease of content (not including the sharp upward curve in some endgame) does attract the bigger audience yes and the arguable amount of attention paid to tuning fights and such can lead to an overall homogeneous experience for a larger amount of the playerbase, but I wouldn't say that was a flaw with XI per se. XI's flaws were not updating the systems that were unreasonably greedy with a player's time and the refusal to share information with the players themselves until recently. As I've said before, I'll defend XI to the death for what it did right but also crucify it for the things it did wrong. I just don't see player experiences varying as one of them

Honestly, I think a duty finder would have immediately solved like 75% of FFXI's issues. The content wasn't actually that hard, it was getting a party together that was the real challenge. It's a fun game, even today. The only reason I let my account lapse is because I'm out of story content to do, and leveling for its own sake seems almost nihilistic.

[Talraen]

Hunts have drama because a lot of people feel that they are entitled to get a kill, even though the system is first come, first serve. I would say the fault lies with the players and not the event itself. The current Hunt thread from the other day was quite amusing.

Yeah the hunt etiquette in this game is kind of insane, which has caused me to just avoid them. And you're right to point out that FFXI-style open world bosses wouldn't have the same kind of drama as hunts. But they'd still have plenty of their own kind.

[SilverObi]

Honestly, I think a duty finder would have immediately solved like 75% of FFXI's issues. The content wasn't actually that hard, it was getting a party together that was the real challenge. It's a fun game, even today. The only reason I let my account lapse is because I'm out of story content to do, and leveling for its own sake seems almost nihilistic.

Funnily enough, they did add a rudimentary PF system to XI. Which you probably already know about, I never saw it make a difference on Siren though but maybe it worked better on the servers that still have a healthier population. But like a lot of things, too little too late. The leveling in XI is more relaxing for me as opposed to XIV, where I feel like I need to try as hard as I can to perform well. In XI I can just solo level with my trusts and listen to some netflix (how do people play this and also watch Netflix like I hear is apparently common?)

[Skivvy]

Funnily enough, they did add a rudimentary PF system to XI. Which you probably already know about, I never saw it make a difference on Siren though but maybe it worked better on the servers that still have a healthier population. But like a lot of things, too little too late. The leveling in XI is more relaxing for me as opposed to XIV, where I feel like I need to try as hard as I can to perform well. In XI I can just solo level with my trusts and listen to some netflix (how do people play this and also watch Netflix like I hear is apparently common?)

What system did they implement? O.o I first went back a few years ago with a new character, but I've stuck to low-key things since then (leveling, MSQ, random farming, etc). I haven't ventured out into the current end-game yet.

[Vaer]

I also agree that MMOs used to be niche, but I think you're wrong about the reaction today. I think if you released an FFXI-style game right now, many of the people who loved FFXI back then would be happy to go right back to that style of game. The difference is that WoW attracted a huge number of people to the genre who would not play FFXI. But they wouldn't have done so in 2004, either. And they didn't.

Maybe, but the genre right now is about mass market because it has worked for so long. I'm one of the players that played XI for many years so I wouldn't mind a game like that. Basically a timesink game. But I know most publishers aren't going to fund a game like that especially with the popularity in mobile games which are basically jump in jump out gameplay models. Most of the ones that have the older EQ era mechanics are all kickstarter ones or have to beg for funding in other ways. IMO FFXIV was designed around the same idea as WoW, that is to get FF fans that have never played an MMO (just like WoW wanted to capture people that never played one, remember the celebrity commercials?) to try one. Personally I think players that want the type of game that EQ, FFXI, UO, vanilla WoW and the likes back then were is a minority compared to ones that want ones like FFXIV or current WoW.

If classic WoW takes off, maybe things will change, but for now I'm not so sure about the viability considering the amount of money it takes to design an MMO.

[Seig345]

I don't think I ever even got into Chains of Promathia content, and yet for some reason I bought each new expansion as it came out. I just couldn't handle the endless waits to find a party or wrap my head around the prerequisites necessary to make myself more appealing for parties to invite me or the leadership aspect of starting my own. Meanwhile in FFXIV I've traipsed my way through each expansion, though I don't much mess with the raid scene.

And yet, I think I enjoyed existing in Vana'diel far more than my entire FFXIV experience. Heck, to be honest, I'm tempted to resume the little NPC party trip I was taking through Vana'diel a year or so ago... if I can just remember my login credentials, PlayOnline is the one part I'm only nostalgic about once I manage to log in. ;p

[SilverObi]

I don't think I ever even got into Chains of Promathia content, and yet for some reason I bought each new expansion as it came out.

That was one of the neat things about XI's expansions and storylines. They were mostly standalone and could be taken in on their own merits and you wouldn't be missing much if you didn't complete or even start another. It's interesting to see how the devs here painted themselves into plot corners in gating off content by expansion and had to make clumsy efforts to not exclude new players when the ones for XI did it so right. Got the expansion? Great you can use the jobs that come with it and go to the new zones at your will.