What are the most common reasons people don't dps?

[Vyriah]

You are again missing the point and mischaracterizing the discussion. Problem players generally don’t care enough even to read the forums, so none of this is for their benefit.

This discussion is about gameplay, not specifically about shaming players who are willfully bad. However, players who are interested in elevating their gameplay but who weren’t previously aware of how they could do so may find some value.

You ignored all the parts of my messages talking about gameplay, though.

I'm not missing the point at all, I do understand what you're saying. That what I started saying you're talking to half-fictive players you barely ever encounter in the game. It's a matter of "this dungeon is kinda slow" thing. It's nothing to argue six month over, especially when from your own admission the main subject isn't even here to begin with. You know, I'm french. Arguing is a cultural here. And I absolutly never argued about something for six month straigh.
The funny part is the fact that the upvote system in this forum is certainly creating a positive reinforcement, the kind of thing I'm telling will make the issue you're talking non-existent. There should be something like a dozen of intervenent here (less now, because we're at the end of a patch and activity is low) and as each side upvote each other, wich confort them into thinking that they're doing the good thing.
That's how it works, and it works well.

[Jollyy5]

...

Would you please stop it with the "half-fictive" preaching? Most healers I've encountered are putting out little to no DPS in both dungeons and raids, even some of the Savages and Extremes, it's a very real thing.

I'm sure you can guess why I would know.

[Alisi]

SCH and WHM can still put out some pretty respectable DPS numbers even on single targets with the right gear.

Yes. But SCH, the "DPS" healer, was nerfed into the ground at the start of the expac. They only went back when people basically stopped playing it. So, yeah, right now SCH can DPS just fine but that's clearly a bandaid. They took redid CS to keep people from forcing healers into DPSing if they don't want to. Yoshi-P said that himself and they nerfed SCH DPS. Where exactly do you think the train's heading, huh?

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Hypocrisy? You don't even understand what we're talking about. We're not talking about "covering each other's asses" or even about whether a healer should DPS or not but rather this whole tone you and everyone else in this thread takes. This healer hate that's endemic. It's not the same for other roles. Not to this level. People openly talk shit about healers all the time. In FCs, on forums, etc. This is just one more example. Healers don't do enough. We must shame healers into doing more.

I do hope you realise members of the "pacifist party of healers" throw the exact same tone back. In fact, you called a Red Mage who actually helps out the healers a unicorn. Or in other words: A myth, instantly disregarding it and not acknowledging that the proposed attitude (ie: Not doing anything outside your role) reflects the healer-should-not-and-must-not-maim attitude.

And frankly, I agree with healers just standing there not doing enough. Would you accept a tank that does all the AoE till they're out of TP and MP and binge watch a show on netflix? Or a DPS role that repeatedly press one button while watching Netflix?

I can't wait until they take healer DPS out just to end the healer hate that people spread. It's coming. Man. They started this expac (why do you think SCH DPS was nerfed into the ground?) and I wouldn't be surprised if by the next one, it'll be zeroed out altogether.

Meanwhile:
Ruin potency increased from 80 to 100
Re-introduction of Miasma II, better than ever, and just for scholars
Fairy gets worse with each level cap increase

[Alisi]

I do hope you realise members of the "pacifist party of healers" throw the exact same tone back. In fact, you called a Red Mage who actually helps out the healers a unicorn. Or in other words: A myth, instantly disregarding it and not acknowledging that the proposed attitude (ie: Not doing anything outside your role) reflects the healer-should-not-and-must-not-maim attitude.

You are a Unicorn. You want a cookie? You didn't share that in a mood of good will. You shared that in the 'I'm better than you all because X'. If you'd posted it in a different context, you would've gotten a different response. Nor did I start a thread about it in the DPS forums. I don't go all 'All you RDMs SUX because you don't RAIZE LIKE EVAR!'

And frankly, I agree with healers just standing there not doing enough. Would you accept a tank that does all the AoE till they're out of TP and MP and binge watch a show on netflix? Or a DPS role that repeatedly press one button while watching Netflix?

Frankly, I don't give two flying F's how other people play their characters. If a tank is maintaining hate and a DPS is DPSing, I don't give a shit what they're doing in the background. I'm curious why you honestly care. Your own character not enough? You have to ride as moral police over everyone else?

Meanwhile:
Ruin potency increased from 80 to 100
Re-introduction of Miasma II, better than ever, and just for scholars
Fairy gets worse with each level cap increase

And those were fixes after the expac came out and after a LONG time of the community basically boycotting SCHs. I played SCH as main all through SB thus far. I'm well aware how few we were. Until the fixes, I never ran into another SCH in endgame content with more than one healer. Those DPS fixes don't address the main SCH issues, though. They're bandaids.

[Jollyy5]

And those were fixes after the expac came out and after a LONG time of the community basically boycotting SCHs. I played SCH as main all through SB thus far. I'm well aware how few we were. Until the fixes, I never ran into another SCH in endgame content with more than one healer. Those DPS fixes don't address the main SCH issues, though. They're bandaids.

Yeah, SCH went out of fashion because their DPS was horrible on top of their poor mana-gement.

Now imagine what would happen if they took DPS away from all healers, suddenly no one is going anywhere because all queues are devoid of healers.

[Vyriah]

Would you please stop it with the "half-fictive" preaching? Most healers I've encountered are putting out little to no DPS in both dungeons and raids, even some of the Savages and Extremes, it's a very real thing.

I'm sure you can guess why I would know.

And I meet a lot of player that did healer DPS ?
Told it in my first message ever, can tell dozen of dozen of stories of players getting upset at my DPS heavy SCH. You can vaguely talk about some upsetting plyare you met, I can talk about actually playing healer in this game.

So I'm sure you can guess why I would know.

Edit : If they take all DPS away from the healer, you can't level them up enough to start a dungeon outside of leeching fate. But that's maybe a detail.

[Jollyy5]

I can talk about actually playing healer in this game..

I wouldn't be here arguing if I didn't play a healer myself.

When I say little to no DPS, I mean healers who are somewhere between 0-500 DPS even in dungeons, sometimes -some- DPS is just a side effect of Assize or Stellar Explosion.

A good example are the myriad Shinryu EX runs I've suffered through, in which I can hold 1,5k DPS with relative ease while keeping people alive, while at least 80% of the time my co-healer is barely pulling 300 DPS.

And no, I'm not forcing my co-healer do all the healing, as I apply Whispering Dawn, Succor, Indomitability, Excogitation, Fey Covenant, Fey Illumination, etc. when appropriate.

[Bahati]

Why is this the only game in which I see everyone expecting a HEALING class to help push DPS numbers? We don't have the tools in this game to spec a "DPS Healer". Nor do we have the tools to make a "Tank Healer", that makes sense right? I don't see anyone complaining PLD isn't contributing enough healing because that is ridiculous. Expecting a healer (whom you don't even know the experience of) to be pushing DPS just to satisfy your standard (that you made up, not SE) that seems just as ridiculous. This game relies heavily on the holy trinity of very distinct roles, I honestly don't understand all the backlash. If DPS checks are not being met, DPS needs to take a hard look at their own numbers and stop replying on healers as a crutch to push numbers.

[Estelle9lives]

snip

There is really no wonder why the term "forum princess healer" exists around here. The reality is all you and Mirai are doing is advocating and defending lazy play, which is the whole reason people complain about healers that go watch Netflix during content instead of helping with the party's DPS. People complain about DPS doing terrible DPS as well - bad DPS is everywhere, but what you guys are doing is putting healers on a pedestal and thinking healers don't deserve criticism for not putting effort.

It's funny you say you "don't give two flying F's" about how people play. I would love if you always got paired with braindead, 1 button spamming DPS and a PLD that only used Flash in all of the content you do. The DPS is DPS'ing and the tank is holding aggro, so everything is fine in the world right? I'm sure you wouldn't mind 45+ minute long dungeon runs for every dungeon or always meeting enrage on Ex Primals/Savage.

One of the main reasons people seem to have more issues with healers not DPSing is because it isn't just a matter of doing your rotations wrong/sitting in tank stance all the time. It literally means you are not pressing any buttons while you could be contributing to your group. Again, no one is asking for all healers to pull 95th percentile numbers in all content. No one is asking healers to have perfect uptime/CPM. No one is asking for healers to DPS on a terrible group where people keep dying and there's a ton of extra healing to be done. But deliberately choosing not to contribute/press buttons is just a display of terrible team play.