Just realized something: FFXIV is a terrible DPS player's DREAM come true...

[Aleta]

I'm fairly certain SE doesn't want players to be able to call out anyone for bad performance, as it might create an unwelcoming environment for players. To SE, if you finish the dungeon, that was a success! I think they want actual performance to take a backseat and not be a focus of the gameplay. Still it's easier to call out Tanks and Healers because the effects are so obvious and largely not open to interpretation. I don't think SE can change that, but I bet they would if they could.

I think you are right. My fear is that official parsers will end up creating a toxic environment such as exists in other games and I am sure that's not what SE wants.

[Guulu]

Although I disagree with the concept that you can easily tell how tanks and healers are doing without parsers, I agree that DPS are often the weak link in a party. I think SE is the one to blame because there is no way to tell how you are doing comparing to others without a parser, especially for DPS players. Everyone will assume they are doing just fine, above average even though they are actually bottom dpsing by quite a bit. For most of the content it doesn't really matter what dps players are doing, you can clear it eventually. When it comes to extreme and savage, things get different because there's an enrage timer. You may have all mechanics done right but you still won't be able to clear it.

Here is where the situation get tricky, SE introduced an in-game dps check without an in-game dps meter. This is completely unfair to new players, especially the ones play on console. Because as a new player, you might just want to try all the content in the game. And when you do, you get shamed and booted from the party because of "poor dps". I've seen so many people doing questionable dps for all 3 roles. And to be fair, the game doesn't ask you to do SSS dummy fight, gating the content behind it won't help either because putting your rotations into practice is another story. Not to mention how badly tuned some SSS dummies are (NIN require almost same dps as MNK while MCH's dummy isn't tuned after receiving several buffs).

I disagree with "parsers create toxicity". In fact, by adding in-game parser in the content where dps matters, I believe it might fix some issues the game have right now. For example, with the in-game parser you can check if you are ready for clearing the fight both dps wise and mechanic wise, then you can join a clear party. And when you are in a clear party but there are people who are not good enough for the clear, vote kick them then re-recruit. Some people think kicking people for dps is toxic behavior of elitest, while I think the people joining the fight which they are clearly not ready for and whine/report/blacklist for being kicked IS the toxic one. Sure there are people expect speed-run level dps, but you can avoid most of those parties by reading the recruitment condition or even create your own party. And there are very few "top-tier dps meta comp only" parties on PF, at least on my data center (Gaia).

The point I'm trying to make is that all players need to/deserve to know how they are performing. So they will know what content they can do at the moment, more importantly, how should they improve to do harder content. And people who deserve the clear can clear much more easier through PF. If you want to argue that you can form/join a static for that, I would ask why should I if PF is good enough. Are you the one ruining a party? Or you support that kind of action? The mindset of "As long as I'm having fun it's okay and you don't pay my sub" is just beyond stupid. Who are you to waste other 7 people's time? Do you pay for their sub? Do you pay for their extra effort to clear with you? Are other 7 people having fun? Like seriously, bad players need to improve and new players don't deserve to suffer from SE's stupid decision.

Edit: post limt

[OMega_ARcane]

As far as dungeons go, you COULD just pay attention to the TP bar during the mobs...If your tank is rounding up all the dummies for everyone to play whack-a-mole most jobs should be depleting TP/MP pretty quick. I've been in lots of dungeons lately where the healer is spamming holy, tank is using his aoe, and I'm using my aoes, yet the other dps has nearly full MP/TP, couple of times the tank DID call those individuals out. Of course, it didn't do anything...at all...my poor TP just stayed drained for the whole time, same with the tank. Felt kinda bad that I couldn't goad him more, but that's on a long cool down. I'd use my smoke screen on the healer if they pulled from the tank or if I started to get close I'd use shadewalker on the tank, heck, if the tank is not using his aoe I'd goad the other DPS if they are melee just to try and see if that gets any type of point across when they have full TP, but the other dps? normal 1-2-3 rotation and nothing more...I mean NOTHING more...at all...I personally don't mind the low dpsing since I know I'm not the best and can at times pick up the slack, but when you don't even use your utilities or aoes...like not even try, that's when it starts to bother me. Then you have the guys who really don't care. The other night me and a friend were running Rabi and the whole time a dps kept dying and putting in the chat "I'm lagging" "I don't know how to fix this lag" "this is so annoying" at the very end of the raid after most people had left he said "I was just kidding. I wasn't lagging, I just didn't feel like doing anything". -_-

[RitsukoSonoda]

I think you are right. My fear is that official parsers will end up creating a toxic environment such as exists in other games and I am sure that's not what SE wants.

Parsers wont make things any more toxic than it already is. The toxic elements are already using 3rd party parsers to do so and you already have toxicity from meta and ilvl. At this point SE adding a parser would at least allow the people that do want to improve without using 3rd party software have something to gauge their progress on.

[Lokier]

I still think they should add a damage done window at the end of dungeons to see once you leave, like they did for POTD floors 51+ solo...
No one can harrass you if the party is over, and chances are you'll never see these people again so the only person gaining anything from it would be you since you can see how well you did overall...

[Melichoir]

Im a tank and I know when DPS sucks. Its not this deep level science. There are pretty big tells.

1) Low max HP = low gear
2) Abnormally low Threat levels with no visible use of threat dumps
3) Clearing pulls takes inordinately to long

With a bit of experience, you can pick out whos usually sucking and whos carrying when it comes to DPS. And yes, Ill call out DPS when theyre being abnormally stupid.

[RichardButte]

Although I disagree with the concept that you can easily tell how tanks and healers are doing without parsers, I agree that DPS are often the weak link in a party. I think SE is the one to blame because there is no way to tell how you are doing comparing to others without a parser, especially for DPS players. Everyone will assume they are doing just fine, above average even though they are actually bottom dpsing by quite a bit. For most of the content it doesn't really matter what dps players are doing, you can clear it eventually. When it comes to extreme and savage, things get different because there's an enrage timer. You may have all mechanics done right but you still won't be able to clear it.

Here is where the situation get tricky, SE introduced an in-game dps check without an in-game dps meter. This is completely unfair to new players, especially the ones play on console. Because as a new player, you might just want to try all the content in the game. And when you do, you get shamed and booted from the party because of "poor dps". I've seen so many people doing questionable dps for all 3 roles. And to be fair, the game doesn't ask you to do SSS dummy fight, gating the content behind it won't help either because putting your rotations into practice is another story. Not to mention how badly tuned some SSS dummies are (NIN require almost same dps as MNK while MCH's dummy isn't tuned after receiving several buffs).

I disagree with "parsers create toxicity". In fact, by adding in-game parser in the content where dps matters, I believe it might fix some issues the game have right now. For example, with the in-game parser you can check if you are ready for clearing the fight both dps wise and mechanic wise, then you can join a clear party. And when you are in a clear party but there are people who are not good enough for the clear, vote kick them then re-recruit. Some people think kicking people for dps is toxic behavior of elitest, while I think the people joining the fight which they are clearly not ready for and whine/report/blacklist for being kicked IS the toxic one. Sure there are people expect speed-run level dps, but you can avoid most of those parties by reading the recruitment condition or even create your own party. And there are very few "top-tier dps meta comp only" parties on PF, at least on my data center (Gaia).

The point I'm trying to make is that all players need to/deserve to know how they are performing. So they will know what content they can do at the moment, more importantly, how should they improve to do harder content. And people who deserve the clear can clear much more easier through PF. If you want to argue that you can form/join a static for that, I would ask why should I if PF is good enough. Are you the one ruining a party? Or you support that kind of action? The mindset of "As long as I'm having fun it's okay and you don't pay my sub" is just beyond stupid. Who are you to waste other 7 people's time? Do you pay for their sub? Do you pay for their extra effort to clear with you? Are other 7 people having fun? Like seriously, bad players need to improve and new players don't deserve to suffer from SE's stupid decision.

Edit: post limt

I completely agree.

Imagine if tanking and healing became literally 10X harder once you hit endgame content: that's what being a DPS is like, levels 1-69 don't teach you jack-squat about how to play your class at the level you NEED to play it in order to meet basic DPS checks, but you're still expected to make them.

I still think they should add a damage done window at the end of dungeons to see once you leave, like they did for POTD floors 51+ solo...
No one can harrass you if the party is over, and chances are you'll never see these people again so the only person gaining anything from it would be you since you can see how well you did overall...

It'd be better than nothing.

[Vstarstruck]

I recently switched from maining a healer to maining a DPS, and this just occurred to me: I went from a high pressure role, to a NO pressure role. I'll explain...

Unless you're in a static that runs a parser, a DPS player can be utterly horrible at their role yet never get called out for it.

Think about it...

1. No DPS meters so no one can see how bad they are.

2. If the DPS in a dungeon seems slow, they can (and WILL) blame the healer for not DPSing enough.

You know, I been telling a story lately, though people may be tired of hearing it. It is a few days old and posted about it in the vent thing. I am just shocked someone did try get away with it. So the thing was, someone that I talk to was doing that final expert dungeon, the one you need ilevel 300 for. It was noticed right away on first pull it was going slow. (I had to explain in yet another thread with a similar issue that experienced players can notice slow or fast pacing on the first pull, you do not need a parser.) So she checked the gear while taking note thunder was not being used at all. So she commented about asking if they had i290 weapon from job quest and to use thunder, no comment was given. By the time they where on the last pull before the first boss, she said stop and to give them a minute. After waiting for a long time for a reply the DPS in question made a comment questioning why they are asking about gear. So finally having enough between the poor performance and poor communication said "Please do not do high level content without doing your lv 70 job quest" then kicked them.

So that story alone proves what you are saying to be false. But I am not sure what the norm is. In this other vent thread one poster was talking about how running into bad dps is rare and admitted he can't notice if people are doing their jobs or not. If that is common ten I guess on average they do get away with it more often then not, and that would support the idea how that BLM made it to the final expert dungeon being not prepared gear wise, rotation wise and spell wise.

Going to the final expert dungeon having fire III to fire I, sometimes casting fire II for a rotation and never thunder,flare, or foul(since they did not have it) has no excuse. This game badly needs tutorial requirements before being able to queue up for some content. "requirements not met, level 70 job quest" " requirements not met, level 300 weapon or above" "requirements not met, clearing hall of novice advanced rotations" If the player base are going to act like babies, they should be treated like it, it is no different then removing chat from feast.

[akaneakki]

Im a tank and I know when DPS sucks. Its not this deep level science. There are pretty big tells.

1) Low max HP = low gear
2) Abnormally low Threat levels with no visible use of threat dumps
3) Clearing pulls takes inordinately to long

1: Not really, I've done more as ilvl 320 drg on omega savage than people who are 340.
2: That also depends on the class as well. Even if samurai dps can be bad, the aggro they get doesn't mean they are good, samurai has a shitton of aggro, just like MNK's

[Vstarstruck]

1: Not really, I've done more as ilvl 320 drg on omega savage than people who are 340.
2: That also depends on the class as well. Even if samurai dps can be bad, the aggro they get doesn't mean they are good, samurai has a shitton of aggro, just like MNK's

I think you know what they meant, if you can do more dps with a 285 weapon then people in 340 gear, I would question your group's ability to pass DPS checks.