Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

[winsock]

No one should have to teach someone who's in level 70 content how to do the bare bones basics of their job, period.

No one is requiring you to do so. However, if you'd like to discuss, I would be interested to hear why you feel that way.

The reason they're bad doesn't matter, because the end result is the same: you're wasting 3 other random people's time.

And technically, it's inconsiderate for them to queue and not know how to play. I'd agree with that. Is it fair to say that its a matter of principle?

Now that's all fine and dandy in principle, but realistically, what do you do about it? you queue solo for expert roulette, hit ala mhigo, and get a bad tank. How do you handle this situation without violating the principles you stand on?

[akaneakki]

No one is requiring you to do so. However, if you'd like to discuss, I would be interested to hear why you feel that way.
?

No one is required to help others, however when you run content with others you are required to do basic.

[Jijifli]

No one is requiring you to do so. However, if you'd like to discuss, I would be interested to hear why you feel that way.

Actually, if I wanna be technical here, anyone that's signed up for mentor's gotta. Also, if the person's inability to press more than butcher block prevents progress, I either explain to them how to play, or kick without a word, and we all know how much people like to assume silent kicks are about third party stuff...

Now that's all fine and dandy in principle, but realistically, what do you do about it? you queue solo for expert roulette, hit ala mhigo, and get a bad tank. How do you handle this situation without violating the principles you stand on?

I explain it, very simply, I pretend I'm talking to a 5 year old. If they refuse, I throw a kick. If they harass me for it, I throw a report. my issue is that people tend to go silent and ignore it, or harass me for it, rather than take the advice. These players should have not been capable of reaching later parts of the game, but they do, because someone can carry them through it. I don't need great. I don't even need good. I just want people that can play their role at a basic understanding by the time they reach content that is meant to demand it. Sastasha doesn't demand it. Sastasha's built with the expectation 4 people don't know how to play. Dungeons by later on should be expecting that the player has learned since Sastasha though.

[MoroMurasaki]

I'll be blunt. I don't care.

/micdrop

/10char

[Hruodig]

No one is requiring you to do so. However, if you'd like to discuss, I would be interested to hear why you feel that way.

To use an example earlier in the thread; say you join a friend's soccer game without knowing anything about how to play soccer. You run around disorganized, kick the ball wherever you want, pick it up with your hands, etc. because you don't know what's acceptable, what's expected, and you never bothered to take the time to figure it out before joining.If your friend and his buddies told you to stop and go home because they actually wanna try to have a game of soccer, are they in the wrong? Or are they trying to partake in an organized team-based activity, where a group of people work together to achieve a common goal (winning)? Is it their responsibility to stop everything, teach you the bare basics of soccer, help you learn how to kick the ball, when to pass, where to be, etc? Or should it have been on you to at least learn how the game is played at a base level, before jumping in?

Now that's all fine and dandy in principle, but realistically, what do you do about it? you queue solo for expert roulette, hit ala mhigo, and get a bad tank. How do you handle this situation without violating the principles you stand on?

Me personally? I never ever ever risk a df tank, ever. As a career tank who has plenty of friends to run things with, I never have to. If I wasn't in this situation though, with a tank who had no clue how to keep aggro on trash mobs? I'd offer advice at first, then leave if it isn't taken. I have plenty of other things I'd rather do than waste my time in a dungeon with someone who hasn't bothered to learn how to do the bare basics.

For me it's a matter of courtesy. I don't want to waste other people's time, so I practice, learn, and actively try to get better. What makes it ok for them to waste my time? Where is their sense of common courtesy? Yes it's "just a game", but I can guarantee you that no one wants to spend 45 minutes in an expert roulette. It's simple.

[winsock]

..snip...

I want to address some of the things that you said that I do agree with. Things like holding mentors to higher standards and:
"I explain it, very simply, I pretend I'm talking to a 5 year old. If they refuse, I throw a kick. If they harass me for it, I throw a report."

Personally, I agree with this approach. For example, if the you or the party were to request the tank use tank stance and flash, but the tank refuses. In this scenario, they are unwilling to work as a team, and you can hold them accountable for their unwillingness with a kick. You have actual evidence as to what they've done in this scenario. As far as I'm concerned, this is solid.

Up to this point at the very least, I think we are more or less on the same page. Does your opinion change by expert roulette? My doesn't and it is simply because, I dont see much difference in what the content demands at a minimum, and i cannot prove they know better.

[MoroMurasaki]

Up to this point at the very least, I think we are more or less on the same page. Does your opinion change by expert roulette? My doesn't and it is simply because, I dont see much difference what the content demands at a minimum, and i cannot prove they should know better.

I don't think most of the people you're debating vary from this by much either, even in expert roulette.

I think you start to see standards actually enforced when you get into content with enrage timers like EX and Savage - at that point you can't get by just throwing out some basic rotation advice because you actually need the majority of the group paying attention and doing alright.

It's crazy how huge this thread has become when there is hardly a disagreement involved.

[Miste]

John has a level 70 tank.
How much experience does he have tanking dungeons?
^ you dont know, because level is not an indication of this.
It's possible he has no dungeon tanking experience as you can get a tank to 70 without tanking dungeons.
:

When did I say anything about how much dungeon experience someone has? That has nothing to do with what I was saying.

You either didn't read my post, or you simply have zero understanding of what my point is.

Also, to use your own words, I think "you're making quite the stretch" using that hypothetical of a tank getting to level 70 without doing a single dungeon. It can be done, but it simply isn't how the game directs you to play and is also an extremely inefficient way to level so it is a very unlikely hypothetical in the first place. You're reaching too far out of the norm.

Is it so much to ask for actual evidence before you go accusing people of things?

To be fair I honestly think it is better to assume someone is lazy rather than just assume they are too unintelligent to know they need to study the basics of their job. You seem to advocate that John is level 70, he never did any dungeons on tank, but the hypothetical John isn't intelligent enough to realize he needs to practice tank from the beginner dungeons instead of jumping into end game dungeons.

So yeah, in my opinion, your assumption about the hypothetical John is is worse than mine. You are assuming he isn't intelligent enough to realize he needs to practice or study the basics of dungeon tanking before going into end game tanking, while I just assume he was too lazy to bother.

[Jijifli]

Personally, I agree with this approach. For example, if the you or the party were to request the tank use tank stance and flash, but the tank refuses. In this scenario, they are unwilling to work as a team, and you can hold them accountable for their unwillingness with a kick. You have actual evidence as to what they've done in this scenario. As far as I'm concerned, this is solid.

If it's the reason he's losing threat and refuses to fix it, then yes, we're on the same page.

[winsock]

Also, to use your own words, I think "you're making quite the stretch" using that hypothetical of a tank getting to level 70 without doing a single dungeon.

This hypothetical is based in reality. I knew someone who had max level tanks who fit this description.

To be fair I honestly think it is better to assume someone is lazy rather than just assume they are too unintelligent to know they need to study the basics of their job.

You say "to be fair", but what is fair about accusing someone of laziness with no evidence of laziness? You accuse of foul play based purely on evidence in your imagination.

If you assume they do not know any better, provide instructions such as using flash, etc, and they refuse to follow, you can kick them for their unwillingness to work with the party, regardless of their skill/knowledge/motivation. In other words, your kick is backed by evidence.