Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[Remedi]

Though if you keep saying that BLM is shunned because of it and that no amounts of raw dmg willc ompete + was sfia said to be a competent replacement it only makes it more and more apparent that as a resource is off balance by itself and has to be nerfed not spread.
Or at least it's what I would get as a game designer (well frankly I wouldn't have given verraise to the job to begin with)

[Cynfael]

Here's the deal though, Cyn. It's already "unjustly spread." And keeping it off of BLM is only making the situation worse because it means BLMs shunned out.

I recognize that your intentions are good, and I don’t think you are truly off the mark.

I’m more of the mindset that resurrection skills outside of the Healer role need to be dialed back, though RDM would require some tweaking if they lost their rez-dispenser niche.

There’s a larger issue of physical vs. magical DPS comps at play, and I think there is a major problem when no one seems to care that the former group cannot raise but seems to expect that the latter group be able to do so. Ideally, if NIN, MCH, and what-have-you are considered healthy and viable without raise, it should be possible to bring BLM to that level.

[Remedi]

To be fair he thinks about progression level play where you need raise the most, though you are not wrong that they could make BLM to be better in the meta by making caster meta viable.

I don't agree with the I don't want to be forced play X job during prog so that I can play my main afterward though. I think that the goal of the party enter into play there, if you aim for wf you are going to do whatever will garantees better chances to get a good position which means beign ready to change your job to better suit your strategy.

[Cynfael]

To be fair he thinks about progression level play where you need raise the most, though you are not wrong that they could make BLM to be better in the meta by making caster meta viable.

Exactly. This why I think RDM has a very unfortunate niche; we are all heavily reliant on resurrection to progress more quickly and efficiently, and our need for it drops off after progression is over. I don’t think rez on magical DPS should ever have been allowed to become something other than an occasional bonus, and now it’s close to being viewed as mandatory for prog.

Back in the day SMN often beat out BLM in prog popularity, but it was about much more than the backup rez. You know rez is overvalued when RDM has few advantages over its peers and is still a top pick, at least during prog.

[Llugen]

So let me see if I can spell this out better. (Ha, get it? Spell? badumtiss)


I made reference to BLM/SAM previously because of the power dynamic. Both BLM and SAM allegedly are "high damage low utility", so in theory you bring one or the other in a group. I'm trying to explain how, by the logic of the people in this thread, even if "damage checks" somehow become SO great that a "raw damage" class is required for it, it would still make more sense to bring SAM and then a SMN/RDM for the recovery tools, because bringing SAM is not gimping you on any recovery tools; you're probably losing disembowel or maybe losing shadewalker.



Saying that "raw damage alone" should be enough for BLM while the other two have Raise turns a completely blind eye to the power of it within the caster role. This is what people in this thread don't seem to understand. MCH and NIN are "perfectly healthy without raise" because they aren't threatened by being replaced by a class that does have it in their same role. Does this make sense?



Without significant "removal" of Raise ability on the other two casters, there will be no such thing as balance on this front, period. Call it homogenization if you want, but the difference between taking a caster that can raise and taking a caster that cannot is staggering. Why gimp your group even if you "need" raw damage by taking BLM when you could just take SAM for the damage and bring SMN/RDM for the recovery?

No other (DPS) role in the game has access to this, or if you prefer, is forced to deal with this level of discrepancy.
This is why it's a huge dilemma explicitly for the caster role, hence this thread, hence the pages and pages of me/us arguing about it while I roll my eyes at people saying "what if SAM wants a heal and DRG wants Trick Attack".




(By the way, they would never implement any DPS check that REQUIRES BLM or SAM; they have to balance the game for at least reasonable variance of comps, furthermore it's still arguable that the total group contribution from "meta" or synergistic classes would outweigh that damage anyway, so it's barely even a point of argument.)

[Sunako]

Well samurai can not halve enmity bar unlike blm, so it is potentially big dps loss for tank if you bring samurai over blm.

[Llugen]

Indeed, but that's undoubtedly a separate issue that needs addressed, preferably by making it so Diversion also dumps, or giving the Melee role the "mini-shirk" I/we have been tossing around.

Besides, it might be a loss but it's certainly not one so huge as to outweigh bringing recovery, esp. for prog related strats. Worrying about enmity on SAM would mostly come from "already on farm"/speedkill areas of play, and as many have pointed out, by that logic Raise is already less valuable so sure, bring the BLM then. However, this is still "band-aid" logic, a la: "play RDM/SMN for prog and play BLM after". No, I want to play my main job, please and thank you.

[Remedi]

Problem is that many ppl are saying that they don't want the caster role to be the raising role of the game and that's why we say that it should be put in check and not spread.

Even so what if for some reasons BLM instead of beign a prog job becomes a meta speed kill job (trough of change to the balance and whatnot).
Does it really need to be extra viable in prog? Because as things stands it's underperforming compared to other options true but it still functions.

You usually point out the fact that you don't want to be forced to play a job during prog and then switch to your main after but frankly I cannot agree on that, if you want to play competitive that's what ppl usually do to reach the goal, which makes me think you don't really like to play like that tbh

[Llugen]

...Of course I don't LIKE to do it, I do it because it's "the right thing to do". But I don't want to NEED to do it.

Besides, it's only because the gap is so great. If the gap was lowered (for instance, if BLM had access to SOME kind of ability for raising and party utility, no matter how small), it would still be "justifiable" by saying "well, it's not QUITE as utility-heavy as SMN/RDM, but it's still usable and can compete on the front, and everyone's not griping at me for playing 'the selfish job'."

I don't think that makes me some kind of monster.


And again, by all means strip the caster role of Raise completely, I'm game. Give RDM Verregen instead of Verraise, which heals over time and also gives a small incoming damage reduction. Bam. Just remember what I said a few pages back about Unending Coil being 18 minutes long vs. Savage Second Coil which was about 12 max, and about 4.XX content vs. 2.XX content as it relates to recoverability.

[Remedi]

I don't really think you can really compare, second coil was also a place where too much dps or bad phase transitions could screw you, as for the recoverability as you said they wanted to not punish the healers too much and frankly also lessen the burden on the PUGs, but from the bits of ultimate you can see that they don't really want to be that accessible and frankly they kinda missed the marks in some place, it kinda shows that they went to somewhat arbitrary design to make sure that raise isn't as free as it was in O4s and not everything went that way, whcih begs what they'll do next?

Maybe phoenix will always shows up to give you a dmg buff at the start of a fight? diying to any mechanics will trigger a catastrophic failure that wipes everyone? the boss recovers health which each deaths? each deaths makes the boss stronger?.

Frankly as it stands raise is not a resource it's a ticking bomb. Strip all lore reasons shenanigans away and you see that as it stands as a tool is too powerful.
20 raises in a fight should not be possible EVER!
The problem it's not about having it or not it's the window of opportunity, if they made Verraise 2.0 secs cast time but not dualcastable it would be as powerful as now and that's a problem.
SMN is limited in it's frequency, but 75% of his dmg is still happening while they channel it also the change to MP cost of R3 essentially gave them infinity MP which means it's never a real loss for them to use it and that's a problem.

As you can see there are gameplay problems attached to it and it's because of that I insist, something that is problematic and harmful to the game should not be encouraged but should be moderated instead especially if it corners the role to a niche that should not be his to begin with