The Journey - Is It Still Wanted?

[Kiara]

I totally agree here. It's too easy to get to 50, and there's way too little diversity in camps and places to exp and sites to see. The journey isn't there, the only decently enjoyable thing is the end game content, which right now is sub-par.

I really want to see the character and enviroment evolve and progress more throughout levels.

All of the wonderful adventure in FFXI is absent in FFXIV. FFXIV is just like sprinting through a really cool art gallary.

When stepping out of the nation into the wildland, it should be dangerous! There should be a 4th nation that we slowly progress to on foot much like jueno. Being able to out-run mobs takes the challenge of traveling. Furthermore, a travel without challenge is not an adventure. Adventure must have that danger component. The hazards should increase as you travel outward.

I would wager that the major majority of all of the people sticking around to play FFXIV through all of this mess are the ones that got hooked to FFXI. That is the only reason I am still here...

Well said.

I remember Day 3 of Final Fantasy XIV when a friend of mine decided to run to Ul'dah (we were in Gridania), as a Rank 12 Archer. I was nervous and excited for him (but I stayed behind wishing him "good luck!") ...

Only to hear from him 20 minutes later:

Friend, "Made it to Ul'dah."
Me, "Oh wow! Nice. How was it?"
Friend, "Didn't die once. Didn't meet any aggro mobs either, strange."

And that was it. I soon made the journey myself, and running through Copy & Paste corridors in The Black Shroud into the brown Copy & Paste of Thanalan to Ul'dah with ease... I was a bit sad.

But the new 2.0 World Redesign really looks exciting! I'm really hoping Yoshida-san and his Art Team deliver on this. I'm really looking forward to creating new memorable experiences like what I had in XI, bringing a new Class from 1 to Max in 2.0.

[Gath]

Irrelevent. go somewhere's else

Your statement of irrelevance is irrelevant. Go post somewhere else.

My 1 gil is worth more than your 1 gil.

[HoolieWho]

My Minority Opinion: I would have liked a version of FFXI where level progression was tied to completion of the various CoP missions. Overcoming challenges along the way would have broken up the grindy aspects of leveling and made the journey that much more memorable and satisfying.

No thanks to PLing. No thanks to cheezy Ifrit shortcuts.

[indira]

i hope SE has this open world focus and not stick us in little rooms(instances) for most the game.

[Dalmore]

I feel there is so much that people have forgotten about the journey in recent years. The fact is that what many are calling "Grind" had so much purpose in past games, if it didn't feel like there was a purpose then people wouldn't have played at all. Here are some of the key points I remember from XI (and I may toss in some Skyrim, Megaman X and others while I'm at it).

A sense of accomplishment-

A lot of people argue that accomplishment shouldn't come from time spent playing the game, and honestly, I kinda agree. But the grind does add something to that. It separates players... now before you start telling me that's a problem, let me explain why I see it as a strength for an MMO.

When I started playing FFXI I had been invited by a friend. He not only taught me how to use the interface, macros and auction house (ah the life lessons of crystals +auction house = gil) but he showed me who I could be. He very early on took me around and showed me some areas (not many places I couldn't reach on my own, he felt I should earn those) and the little Tarutaru proceeded to decimate everything. Swarms of mobs would fall at his feet at the flick of his level 67 black mage wrist. Enemies that could kill me by looking at me.

In a way it was reminiscent of Megaman X. In the first game, the very first stage the boss is set to beat you. You can't damage him, you can't avoid him, cant escape him, and when all hope seems lost Zero busts in and destroys the dude in a single shot. Instantly you are thinking "Man this guy is awesome! I want to be like him, I want to be that strong!" He quickly becomes that cool character, that awesome goal, the strong guy you aspire to. He then proceeds to say that while you are not as strong as him now, someday you will be! This is huge, the promise to one day be as strong as him becomes a big part of the game, collecting health boosts, new armors, new weapons it all has that theme.

From an MMO stand point, watching people topple beasts that send you running in a single blow is a huge incentive to keep playing, they not only become your inspiration, but your rival. They make every level, every grind party, every over ambitious pull worth while. This separation gave players a much more substantial, and sometimes, more meaningful goal than simple end game. To go from a beginner, just learning the ropes, to an equal, a comrade, someone who doesn't just respect these masters, but is respected by them. If these things are easy to achieve, then not only do strong players fail to impress on any substantial level, but you care very little about these self set goals.



Rites of Passage-

Many people fail to bring things like this up but an MMO is a world with players, and that's it. Now a GOOD MMO on the other hand is its own culture. This is shown, not only through the NCPs or the story, but through the players and how they teach and treat each other. I remember when I hit level 10, my friend was quick to tell me that I needed to go to the Valkurm Dunes and find a party. This place was where I learned how to party, and it was a lot to learn from me as I was a warrior and therefor the tank (I remember when I first died, and after a resurrect I ran right back into battle not knowing anything about weakened status, not a good idea for a tank, but you have to admit I showed the will and tenacity for the job)

This journey was a big deal, they congratulated me on my accomplishments, the told me how close I was to my sub job all of these things were treated as mile stones, achievements worthy of praise, and celebration. Me and my party was lead into the dunes by an experienced and strong player, to teach us how to hunt our prey. He taught our thief how to pull, our DDs and healers how to keep hate off of them, as well as teaching me how to keep hate where I wanted it, and who to protect from it. He then would stay and watch us fight as we took our first few enemies, always ready to spring into action if ever we needed help. It was like a first hunt. Experienced hunters came along to teach us how to survive the hostile world and after that we were on our own, "adults" if you will. It made my levels going up was actually connected to my character growing up. He felt like he was growing into a warrior, and how the community treated this only solidified it.

Now if the game's "Journey" is too fast, and leveling does not give time to truly develop any traditions, then the Culture of the game is lost. Not only is there no need for these moments of learning how to play under the watchful eye of your elders, but there is no reason to celebrate getting to level 10 or getting a chocobo, none of it feels like noteworthy accomplishment.

Small stories, Overarching Stories-

A story is more than a plot. The plot may define the path taken but the story is what happens along that path. (Here is the promised Skyrim Mention) In Skyrim one of the things that amazed me the most was the diversity of my adventures. They weren't diverse because I just went point A to point B, it was all the things that happend in the middle. I did the magic collage quests and at one point I had started to head back to the collage to complete a quest. As I entered the courtyard I heard a huge roar as a dragon decided to attack when I was most vulnerable, without my swords (I was doing the mage quests right Dang it!) I was forced to resort to my much lesser mage skills to defeat the beast. Suddenly the job I was working on a second ago didn't matter, nothing mattered but this moment. This was one of my most epic and greatest challenges I have had in the game. It wasn't even end game, not close, it was a distraction in the middle of an out of the way SIDE QUEST!

In Skyrim I have had many such moments. I have met many different people, traveled with a variety of mages and warriors, and overcome things that I still can't beleive I have overcome. Moments like this in a game like Skyrim are limited (without mods of course PC FTW!) You can only meet so many people, travel with so many friends and only do the same quest so many times before it becomes old. But in an MMO it is endless. Sure the overarching story is 1-50. But what about the encounters that define us until then? If a game becomes so obsessed with 50 then a lot is missed 1-49. No need to meet new people, no chance to laugh at mistakes or swap war stories with the others while the healer rests for mp, or maybe you just dance at each other.

The fact is that the grind is never a grind if you do so with the right people. I soloed in FFXI a lot and didn't care how long it took me. I enjoyed talking over my linkshell, randomly declaring my love of nachos or getting in a RPed glue fight with the linkshell leader. Was it stupid? Yes. But I loved every moment of it because of the people involved, whether in my linkshell or in a party with me, MMOs have the ability to give encounters with limitless characters, all of which have a unique background and story. And while long lasting friends are great, even one time encounters, or rare meetups, are have such meaning.


Am I saying that the game should go to a months to level, grind fest? No. All I am saying is that if all a game focuses on is the end game content, look how much we miss out on. If someone comes up to you and says, "Seinfeld was a show about nothing" or "West Wing was about a president who got elected again and then someone else got elected" would you say you experienced anything? If all the game is, is endgame, then it's like fast forwarding through any tv show and then watching the last episode. Even though you watched the last episode, you missed too much to say you experienced anything of any value. You never learn to love the characters, never feel good for their achievements, and never feel bad when they are hurting. All you got was them saying goodbye, and I wouldn't watch a show that was nothing but goodbyes from people I don't care for.

I hope SE well Yoshi reads this.................................

[Davorok]

For me, the Adventure is in the Journey not the Destination.

[nekroturkey]

Guivre was Kuftal, not Gustav.

I actually don't remember many parties in Gustav, but I had tons of them in Kuftal on those crabs.

Gustav was a great place to level from 50-60, off the goblins.

As far as the topic goes, I definitely wish this game had as much of a journey as XI had. It wasn't so much about getting to the max level as it was appreciating the experiences to the max level. The fondest of my XI memories consists of my experiences before I had even hit 75 or experienced the endgame content. I'm probably going to get criticized for saying this, but I feel Abyssea ruined the game completely on this front. The game had started to go downhill once ToAU came out though. Up until ToAU, the expansions for XI had been about expanding the content, not replacing it. Sea didn't replace Sky for the endgame content, just like Bibiki Bay didn't replace Ru'Avitau or Ro'Maeve for the leveling grounds. They worked in cohesion to make a better, more expansive game. But ToAU wasn't so much about expanding content as it was about replacing content and just generally making the game worse and more shallow than it was. Then Abyssea comes along and continues the vicious cycle by one-upping ToAU. They had the right idea with WotG, offering alternatives to partying and leveling areas for the lower/middle levels. They should've just skipped ToAU for that and then ditched Abyssea completely.

Getting back to the topic, I highly doubt 2.0 is going to be able to recreate the same kind of experience, or if it's even going to try. It seems like Yoshida is taking more of a standardized/mainstream approach to the game as opposed to the niche experience XI went for. Not a whole lot of people want a steep grind, even if it is peppered with deep, meaningful content.

[Tempestmoon]

Call FFXI what you want, but it was a unique game with a great adventure through every single "earned" level. With every level there was something to look farward to. I admit the grind was a little to much, but not by much. With the different system in FFXIV I think it can handle more of a grind system. FFXI's biggest problem was the hours upon hours of searching for a party, or good party set up. These are not issues in FFXIV and even with a lack of party search people are doing it in a quick time frame. When the party search function is up I don't foresee party forming issues and you can get out ther grind for as long as you want.

The dreaded party search is what people really hated about the grind in XI. That in the end is why I quit as well. Jobs were make obsolite and no one wants a blm or a thf, or a mnk anymore so you're screwed.

SE bring back the grind to about 3/4 of what it was in XI as long as your party search feature is robust and easy to use to find a party for any class you are looking to level.

[Synfrag]

There are some great stories in this thread.

I agree with the OP but in no relation to the PLing. The progression is not there, nor was it ever. I certainly hope it returns with the map redesign and it sounds most likely that it will based on what Yoshida has said regarding it. I think with independent areas there will be significant mob re-locations involved and that that will break it up a little.

I too have the same fond memories as many do with their first step into Vana'diel, making friends, joining their first LS and everything else that came. But, XI was my first step into the MMO world and most of the nostalgia and feeling I have for the game comes from that fact. I do have some fond memories from Aion in the beginning but again, that was a first (PvP) that inspires the sense of fun and adventure.

Although many of us have fond memories of our first exposure to those zones and experiences most of us dreaded going back to them on our 2nd, 3rd, 20th job. I don't ever remember hearing "Yay time for Valkurm again!" outside of a sarcastic comment. The same goes for nearly every other zone, much to the point where people took to soloing and powerleveling in XI to avoid them. My point being, most of the players now having at least 1 lvl 50 have no desire for a grind like that.

The main problem is that there is no awe inspiring sense of progression at all so nobody cares to enjoy what doesn't exist. There are no milestones yet, the Job system strives to change this but will it? Should that change in the future and people start enjoying the grind a bit more then powerleveling will likely go down.

For the longest time I have stood by and been a supporter of the game and franchise. But, without a massive, massive overhaul to the story and progression I fear even 2.0 will fail.

Yoshida and the Dev team know that that sense of progress doesn't exist so if they don't fix it their heads will roll as it is a franchise staple.

[Tempestmoon]

There are some great stories in this thread.

I agree with the OP but in no relation to the PLing. The progression is not there, nor was it ever. I certainly hope it returns with the map redesign and it sounds most likely that it will based on what Yoshida has said regarding it. I think with independent areas there will be significant mob re-locations involved and that that will break it up a little.

I too have the same fond memories as many do with their first step into Vana'diel, making friends, joining their first LS and everything else that came. But, XI was my first step into the MMO world and most of the nostalgia and feeling I have for the game comes from that fact. I do have some fond memories from Aion in the beginning but again, that was a first (PvP) that inspires the sense of fun and adventure.

Although many of us have fond memories of our first exposure to those zones and experiences most of us dreaded going back to them on our 2nd, 3rd, 20th job. I don't ever remember hearing "Yay time for Valkurm again!" outside of a sarcastic comment. The same goes for nearly every other zone, much to the point where people took to soloing and powerleveling in XI to avoid them. My point being, most of the players now having at least 1 lvl 50 have no desire for a grind like that.

The main problem is that there is no awe inspiring sense of progression at all so nobody cares to enjoy what doesn't exist. There are no milestones yet, the Job system strives to change this but will it? Should that change in the future and people start enjoying the grind a bit more then powerleveling will likely go down.

For the longest time I have stood by and been a supporter of the game and franchise. But, without a massive, massive overhaul to the story and progression I fear even 2.0 will fail.

Yoshida and the Dev team know that that sense of progress doesn't exist so if they don't fix it their heads will roll as it is a franchise staple.

I agree with most of what you said, the key is no progression. With the new zones and mobs getting tougher as you move away from civilization this will take care of a good part of it. Combined with the achievement system, landmarks and a full array of level specific instances and primal battles I think this will do the trick. Not to mention ranking up in your company, which in itself will be an achievement as long as it is not handed to us on a golden chocobo.

all in all, i think Yoshi will do good by 2.0 and anything missing will be quickly implemented as they will not be spending a huge chunk of their time optimizing and building systems and infrastructure in the back ground.