Healing in 4man parties (The experience 60-70)

[Sylvina]

If you can't apply healer dps don't. your first job is keeping the tank alive and if they're making that hard for you, don't give them dps, just keep them alive till you can.

[Lilseph]

If you can't apply healer dps don't. your first job is keeping the tank alive and if they're making that hard for you, don't give them dps, just keep them alive till you can.

I'm sure they know that, but healing is an art. Knowing HOW to heal is what sometimes enables you to DPS. Since OP is just starting as a healer, I'd like to know more about his playstyle to see if there's something he can improve. I was able to DPS even with the sh**est tanks I could find. So, there must be something they are missing here.

[Ursa_Vonfiebryd]

I think the point of this, is that when people don't do their jobs correctly, it makes everyone else's harder. With the OP, they are obviously trying healing for the first time and listing their observations which are obviously NOT LAW. This whole post should be taken with a grain of salt since it is partially a rant post, which I kind of figured by the title.

I also respect the OP because they are actually learning to heal, instead of just complaining about healing without having done any, like I've seen so many tanks (and occasionally DPS) do.

Also, the OP cited that this is their 60-70 experience. So leveling. We all know the problem dungeons: Dzemael, Aurum Vale, Sohm Al, Vault and Bardams which are problems mostly due to the potential swarming--except Vault which adds shitty boss mechanics to that. In these dungeons, things can go south rather quickly, no matter the ilvl. These are skill dungeons, where you have to actually know your shit or you're probably going to die.

Ignoring numbers, I believe that the OP (and other tanks who have commented) is right about one thing at least. Part of the Tank's job is assessing the group. It's not just about pulling huge because to do otherwise makes you w e a k. That's role stereotype BS. As a Tank you are a leader. You assess the situation and pull what is best for your group to handle and manage the flow of the duty accordingly. To do anything less is to be a button masher with a God-Complex. Sure, you might die last but 'git gud' has never magically made anyone's battle experience any better. I don't know why people keep giving it out as advice (instead of ACTUALLY GIVING OUT ADVICE).

It's been my experience that, with leveling DF groups, small pulls go down faster because the healer can DPS. If the healer isn't dpsing then obviously larger pulls are more efficient. I do not ascribe to the expectation that healers must dps. However, if they don't there's no point in pulling smalls. OP, you obviously expect to add your dps to the numbers, so making sure you can do that is a good idea.

So, OP, you need to speak up. As other tanks have cited (and I'm sure you've done as well being tank), the first pull usually determines what you have to work with. If you believe things are going to go FUBAR, then you need to mention it--even at the risk of being viewed as incompetent. Most people really just want to get through the duty in a reasonable amount of time. Some want a challenge (because yes, some of this is boring AF) but I don't think that's a reasonable expectation of a DF group unless everyone is in agreement. So communicate. It doesn't always work but it never works if you don't try it.

I feel you. I do. I leveled a healer to take some of the heat off our FC leader (who was our main heals once upon a time) and to que faster. Now I have all of them. Your trade-off on faster ques is having to deal with less-than-ideal situations but the majority of the community will work with you--you just have to let them know. After all, no one ques to wipe (unless it's a Shinryu EX learning party). :P

[MoroMurasaki]

You can choose not to debate it all you want, sticking to your echo chamber. (I literally layed out the exact situation(s) in which a healer can come across, and you had no argument, other than "I'm clearly right.")
I bet you also didn't read the part where the OP mentioned they still do pull 2 groups, only if the 2nd group was within reason. (which is honestly most groups after some of the earlier pulls in the SB dungeons.)
And the OP recorded the recovery from a wipe as part of the time spent in "madness" pulls. (Remember your tank needs to be in i250/255 gear in kugane, not using CDs, pulling door to door, and you can't carry them, as that wouldnt be the normal/average)

You'll need to record the amount of HP lost as a percentage in content outside of SB leveling dungeons, as you claimed the healing requirements isn't higher in SB dungeons. (Which I will admit I dont actually know, but do go off of my limited personal experience, where I've never encountered tanking being globaled before, w/o mechanics being done wrong, like in savage.)
You'd also need to know the group composition, because many prior tests into which job(s) are quicker in 1 group pulls, and vs 2 groups+, as they always had differing results based on group composition.

But also, if I said it happens roughly 1 in 4 times, why mention the "I cant agree that all tanks are bad", as we arent saying its all tanks. Just a large enough amount, it becomes noticable.
The very fact it doesnt happen the majority of the time, is evidence that the healer isn't always to blame, such as you suggest. (Again, just means the healer wasn't able to carry them, which isnt to be expected as the "standard".)

But as for the advertised clear time, I'm not actually disagreeing with you solely on that. But simply saying "My experiences say you're wrong" is just as bold of a claim.
Record it, and back yourself up, and show DPS parses, so people can make sure the group wasnt holding back in either scenario, outside of having less targets to hit.

The burden of proof is on the accuser. If (likely when) I run a few of these dungeons to disprove things the OP has posted it is icing on the cake because despite all of the claims that bad tanks are bad the only person to link real evidence thus far is Sebazy.

I'm sorry you seem to have as rough a time as you do here but I'm at the point that I'm taking your claims at face value. If I know that you have all of these difficulties doing things I (and many others) do with relative ease is it not reasonable to think you might be your own problem?

Now I know it sucks to get introspective and wonder if you're doing something wrong, it's something that I've actually gotten a lot better at while playing this game. I still think until you can start linking parses of every roulette you do (or youtube/twitch/whatever) you are the one making the claim/complaint and with no supporting evidence your claim is baseless and moot.

Back up what you're saying with facts or your experience is of no more value than mine or anyone else's.

If one in four df runs went the way you claim the tales from the duty finder thread would be a hell of a lot longer at this point.

[Claire_Pendragon]

The burden of proof is on the accuser.
-proceeds to make claims, and then asking others to do the prooving-

Yes, burden of proof of ANY claim, is supposed to be handled by the person making the claim. But treating something as true or false isnt related to the burden of proof.
Nor does the person who makes the claim HAVE to be the only person to work on the claim. It's just more efficient to place the burden on the claimer, even more so if they initially had more information than the rest, since they were the 1st to bring it to anyones attention.

Everything is an UNKNOWN, until prove either true or false.
When something is neither true or false, its treated equally to false, but it is not inherently false.

This is something everyone likes to misunderstand.

You can NOT say something is false, that is a claim. (It is only an unknown, until proven otherwise)


I don't think the OP is either right or wrong, and "claims" made from people here, with anecdotal evidence is not going to sway them or myself.
How ever, I can be biased, and have an opinion, that the OPs time are incorrect. But this is just an opinion, as I know I don't actually know.
The claim I made, was that you don't actually know, but like me, have a strong belief it's not very likely.

You talked about the scientific method, and argue semantics about the exact wording someone used, all the while are planning to record "I'll make recordings to prove I'm right." Which in itself is considered unreliable evidence, due to bias.
You claim I'm having a rough time, despite every example I've given otherwise, while you keep demanding for more info, you refuse to give any in return. (Claims about the OPs difficulty I couldnt make any statement on, as I don't know enough about them.)
You're correct that until I can provide you a parse of some sort, you're inclined to think the problem isn't the example I had given. (Not only would I have to wait for exact situations to occur again, I honestly doubt people would be having as much trouble today, as most people are both more geared, and know the fights/dungeons better as an average. But I haven't run a leveling roulette in months so maybe I'm wrong. I also don't have parsers, nor can my PC record videos after my GPU died.)

But I still want to know what is the correct answer to a situation, where you need to dodge rather large cleaves from the colossus, while popping oGCDs in between GCD cures, and largesse regen/cure2, and tanks die during the cast time.
Regardless if the tank is performing well or not.
Is there an answer? because if not, then this argument is pointless.

Also you're random claim about the length of a thread is irrelevant, and needs evidence to back up such a claim.
(Also, if you hadn't noticed, I wasn't interested in convincing you of anything, I was instead challenging YOUR claims, and instead, you tried to turn it into challenging mine. You're free to do it, but it doesnt make your arguments look any more right or wrong.)

EDIT: While the posted times the OP gave are probably wrong, the general point of their argument could still stand with one example. (Not the actual listed number as a time)
Both groups usually pull 2 groups of mobs.
Ignore wipes slowing the run down.

One group the DPS are single targeting different mobs, and not using AoEs.
The other group is using AoEs.
(depending on DPS, sometimes single target attacks can do more dps, depending on the number of mobs, like with RDM, you throw in single target attacks, with AoE, on 3 mobs.)

Clearly one group is going to finish faster.
If the OPs example is a corrupt sample, where ppl single target in the second example, due to them being poor players, and the 1st example had more 2 group pulls than they realize, along with jobs better suited for the AoE dps, they can get something at least close to resembling their claim. (Though their claim might be too extreme, even to be considered close)

Now, lets make an even more exaggerated example.

The AoE group only pulls 1 group of mobs.
The 2nd group pulls 2+ groups of mobs.

The 2nd group ONLY uses single target, and lets say isnt as high in single target dps as some of the other DPS. (heck, looking at the one video posted, the BLM just spamed fire3 only, and the run took forever, even with poor AoE rotations)

Now the remaining question is, can a healer make up the lost DPS from not pulling a 2nd group, in the AoE group? Obviously not. But is it more than the group who pulls 6+ mobs, and only single targets? there's no DPS gained from pulling more mobs, but there IS dps lost from a healer not DPSing as much, due needing to spam heals more.

Of course we need actual parses from this point forward, but I'm of the opinion the OP got corrupt samples, and trying to go from memory, gave poor representative numbers of their prior tests. (Or just straight up exaggerated it.)
I doubt the OP recorded them, otherwise the OP would have posted them.

[Nedkel]

I believe they blame you because in all others mmorpg healers tend to "heal only" and not to do dps like in this game helping the run go faster.
I think its all about people thinking steoretypicaly that a healer doesnt have good enough AOE's to help in dps so they should only heal the tank, if the tank dies then its healer fault. Healing must be done and noone care about healers fun, same with the tanks, pull or go away to the granny house if you cant hold 2 spawns of mobs or take the aggro from the healer, thats all.
With cooldowns or not, its "not worth" using them on few trash mobs, simply because it will take awhile to recharge them and the tank expects from the healer to keep him alive with basic stuff on when tanking it, like for example shield stance. If he is being blamed for not maintaining the aggro, why should healer not be blamed for not keeping tank alive? Its your average mmorpg dungeons experience right there pal. :P
You are a tank, and everyone around you dies - yo suk
You are a dps and the run goes super slow? - end yourself
You are a healer and tank dies? - go play candy crush
It boils down to single expectations from your average mmorpg player named John. xD

[Thoosa]

When I heal I don’t often find bad tanks, actually on the contrary I more often find really good ones over bad ones. What seems to happen more often is that the dps don’t know how to aoe the mobs so fights take ages and what can happen is the tank runs out of cooldowns and then takes huge damage I can’t heal fast enough.

I guess in the lower level dungeons you can expect tanks to not use cooldowns properly or pull too much, but in my experience I find that a rare occurance in the higher dungeons

[Bahati]

It's quite easy to have a hard time in SB dungeons when you're running with level boosted fresh faces. It's been wild.

[SenorPatty]

Only thing I'm gonna say as someone who spent 3 weeks leveling 2 healer jobs and one tank back to back: if you got shite dps, doesn't matter if you mass pull or not, things die slow and that precipitates wipe. I've healed really good mass pulled bardam and doma runs, both dgns who have what i call "critical mass pull sections" and utterly destroy mob packs. Ofc there have been plenty others where the tank I healed was popping his cds well enough and I was just pure healing him to make sure he'd stay alive for that pull and the dps was just so subpar that the both of us ran out of resources and we wipe.

A proper mass pull run with people who know their job and play well will never be slower than one who's pulling one at a time. That's just my point of view. My other other point of view is that unfortunately, my hot pocket heart has seen more bad play during my time while I was lvling than good ones.


One more thing: Being unable to dps as healer is not a bad thing if you're concentrating on keeping your tank alive when he mass pulls. 61-69 SB dgn mobs hit hard and you should only be squeezing some dps when its safe.

[Melichoir]

So Im no hardcore tank but heres the deal:

When I pug a dungeon, I look at a few things. I check peoples HP (if its low, theyre likely lower geared), I check our comp (how much AoE DPS we have and what kind), and take into account the dungeon we're in.

If things SEEM to check out ( I may also do View Search info or whatever it is to see if theyre a fresh player or one with a few 70s), I then Do a huge start pull. If everything checks out (Im not popping every last DCD I have, no risks of dying, etc), then thats the speed Ill pull at. If the healer or DPS isnt enough, then Ill pull smaller.

But Frankly, if we got good DPS, and a geared Healer, I personally expect us to be capable of large speed pulls. It has always been quicker in my experience.