Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

[MoroMurasaki]

The single button smasher IS the cruddy tank or healer though, the button just changes to the AOE heal or the flashiest Tank skill instead of the big numbered one for DPS. This is OP's concern. Someone who thinks this is how you play (SMASH DAT BUTTON!!) and anyone who suggests different is elitist or playing the game like a job.
These people aren't going to calmly sit there while you push numbers at them. They're going to yell "YOU DON'T PAY MY SUB" and then report YOU for harassment. They've never read a log, they have NO idea what their DPS or HPS or Threat generation looks like and wouldn't respond to those values even if presented with them.
I don't deny parsers are a valuable tool, but in this case, as in the people the OP is referring to, they are not helpful (and partially I don't think this thread will benefit from the pro/anti parser discussion that always comes out of that) for the type of player who learned incorrectly or refuses to take advice. I'm purposely going to avoid any discussion on the pro/cons and just say in this case it would not benefit anyone to bring it into this interaction.

I can certainly see what you're saying but I think the diffrrence comes down to the skill floor for dps versus tanks and healers. In casual content the skill floor of dps (outside of a specific dps check like the swords in Ala Mhigo) is just like... don't get kicked or DC. For tanks and healers there is an actual function to perform aside from killing enemies that will wipe the group rather quickly when it's left unattended.

I'm not scared of harassment reports because I know I don't harrass anyone. Right now I play on PS4 exclusively so no one can say I'm parsing and when I do give advice it's always respectful anyways.

I agree I don't want this thread to go down that rabbit hole but I do think some sort of very basic meter showing your primary role's metric (at least) compared to what it should be for the content you're running would not be crazy. It wouldn't even be a parser in the classical sense. I don't know, I want to believe that if someone had evidence on their screen that they were playing in a way that inconvenienced others they would try to rectify the situation. Maybe I'm naive though.

I got to say, maybe i misinterpreted the purpose of your thread. Could you clarify something for me?

In your op, you say:
"I'm talking about the BLM that spams Thunder."
"The WAR that presses only Butcher's Block"

Why do you feel a BLM spamming Freeze is okay, especially considering the two examples above are not? Personally, if I am a grouped with a BLM that spams freeze and/or thunder, I would make an attempt at guiding them into a proper rotation.

I know this is a bit off topic but honestly what is your purpose in this thread? Like, you clicked on it and decided to reply but to what end? What are you advocating? It sounds like you have a similar approach to bad play that many of the people you're arguing against employ so then... why are you here?

The only thing I can connect is that you have something against people complaining about those poor players that we all encounter? Like a 'stop whining' goal? If so I feel like that is entirely out of place on a forum designed for discussion of a video game but at least I would know where you stand.

[winsock]

I know this is a bit off topic but honestly what is your purpose in this thread? Like, you clicked on it and decided to reply but to what end? What are you advocating? It sounds like you have a similar approach to bad play that many of the people you're arguing against employ so then... why are you here?

I originally responded to the OP, and later joined a discussion related to 'lazy play' with ( i think the char name was hyo something rather? )

That discussion was primarily why I was here. A claim was made about 'lazy play'. The point I wanted to make is that you cant truly determine a player is being lazy unless they tell you they're being lazy. Data points like level are not indicators of lazy play.

I would know where you stand.

My stance is treating people who make these bad plays as if they are new/just dont know what to do. In addition, I believe that for most content, "poor performance" really doesnt matter that much. Initially, I believed the OP's "poor play" to be related to "poor performance" which i think is where some of the confusion originated.

For the sake of having an example of why poor performance doesnt matter on most content, let's say a BLM is spamming Freeze as their AoE rotation in a dungeon. If you attempt to assist them with their rotation, but they continue to spam freeze, you might kick them, but you kick them for their unwillingness to work with the group not their actual performance. If they were attempting the proper rotation but weren't flawless with execution, from my experience they dont get kicked / yelled at, etc, and its good that they stay in party so that they can practice.

[Miste]

That discussion was primarily why I was here. A claim was made about 'lazy play'. The point I wanted to make is that you cant truly determine a player is being lazy unless they tell you they're being lazy. Data points like level are not indicators of lazy play.

My stance is treating people who make these bad plays as if they are new/just dont know what to do.

So that level 65 PLD (who also had multiple other level 70 jobs including DARK KNIGHT) I came across who couldn't hold hate on anything in Dusk Vigil leveling roulette so that I had to tank half the mobs in the pull on WHM (or the DPS tanked)....they were just new/didn't know what to do? Already has DRK at 70 along with a few other 70 jobs and can't hold hate in a leveling dungeon on a sync'd 65 PLD? They're just new and/or they just don't know what to do?

I think you're still floating out in that nebula 5million light years from planet Earth still if you think you cannot tell if laziness is a factor sometimes.

What excuse is there for a tank who has PLD at 65 and DRK at 70 to not know how to just simply hold hate on trash mobs by that point? Even ignoring mitigation just the simple task of just using level 6 Flash so that all three mobs stay on them instead of 2/3 ending up being tanked by the healer or other DPS?

[AphraelAmarantha]

Snip

Could have been someone who just sucks at tanking. And before you spout off "It's the easiest class to play!" it really is not for some people, myself included, hence I refuse to tank in this game because the same issues may occur that you just described and I don't want to do that to other people lol. But I agree with Winsock that its not always lazy play, maybe the player just sucks at tanking.

[Miste]

Could have been someone who just sucks at tanking. And before you spout off "It's the easiest class to play!" it really is not for some people, myself included, hence I refuse to tank in this game because the same issues may occur that you just described and I don't want to do that to other people lol. But I agree with Winsock that its not always lazy play, maybe the player just sucks at tanking.

I never tell other people what jobs are easy because it depends on the person, but, my example just mentions simply holding hate.

You need one single button to hold AoE hate on PLD. Flash. Are you claiming pressing Flash even once was "too hard" for that level 65 PLD I had? "Maybe the player just sucks at tanking" so they cannot use Flash even once because it is too hard for them?

Or the actual more plausible possibility that they simply were too lazy to read the tooltip for Flash so they don't know what it does and/or was just too lazy to bother worrying about keeping hate and was watching Netflix.

You are basically just ignoring the more plausible explanations for extreme outliers. How did they get PLD to 65, DRK to 70 and multiple other jobs, or even get by the character creator if they were incapable of pressing one button?

[Jijifli]

Could have been someone who just sucks at tanking. And before you spout off "It's the easiest class to play!" it really is not for some people, myself included, hence I refuse to tank in this game because the same issues may occur that you just described and I don't want to do that to other people lol. But I agree with Winsock that its not always lazy play, maybe the player just sucks at tanking.

In the example that you quoted, it is a player, that has managed to reach towards the end of the game, that fails to understand that basic concept of his role. If he is a tank, he has to hold threat. If he can't do that by level 65, he shouldn't be playing tank. To even begin with, let's assume he job boosted. He still had to go a minimum of 5 levels of this, and I personally doubt they were grinding open world monsters or fates, otherwise they'd still be doing it rather than showing up to a dungeon. This means he managed to get taken through multiple levels, as a terrible tank that can't hold more than 1 target. This is where part of my issue was.

It's not even just players failing to press the most basic of buttons (How do you not know flash?) It's also that we gotta take them by the hand, carry them through, make them feel like they know what they're doing when they clearly don't. Honestly, I'd rather have a tank that has threat on everything and gets hit by everything. Things don't hit hard enough, but the point would be that the damage is focused on the person that can take it. Wanna know what's not fun? WHM tanking. MCH tanking. NIN tanking (This is after Shadewalker on them... please.)

[HyoMinPark]

Could have been someone who just sucks at tanking. And before you spout off "It's the easiest class to play!" it really is not for some people, myself included, hence I refuse to tank in this game because the same issues may occur that you just described and I don't want to do that to other people lol. But I agree with Winsock that its not always lazy play, maybe the player just sucks at tanking.

Then, if they suck, they should try to get better. If they refuse to get better, or just can’t, then they should probably not tank.

To be frank, the refusing to improve/get better at a job or role is the same thing as lazy play. It’s bad AND lazy play on the behalf of that player.

[Alleo]

Could have been someone who just sucks at tanking.

If you suck so much on the job that you cant even do the basics like keeping hate then you really shouldnt run those dungeons. Those players simply could train their skills in stuff like palace of the death or even with the new commando. I am bad at tanking too so I only level it up outside of dungeons. I would find it not fair for the group if they had to play even harder just because I am that bad. I mean if you dont have enough good players with you just that one person can make a run impossible. So yes its bad for them to have to level it on another way but one should not punish the other players for their own lack in skill.