Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

[Jijifli]

(and partially I don't think this thread will benefit from the pro/anti parser discussion that always comes out of that

Correct. I didn't want this to become a parse topic. DPS not doing 5k DPS is no where near my issue. It's people that do so little because they press 1 button, the people that a built in parser could not physically be able to help. If they really didn't want to look at how things works, a number of dps wouldn't help more than a number of potency.

My rant really just wanted 1 button pressing out of my system for the most part. I don't need great, I just want basics.

I got to say, maybe i misinterpreted the purpose of your thread. Could you clarify something for me?

In your op, you say:
"I'm talking about the BLM that spams Thunder."
"The WAR that presses only Butcher's Block"

Why do you feel a BLM spamming Freeze is okay, especially considering the two examples above are not? Personally, if I am a grouped with a BLM that spams freeze and/or thunder, I would make an attempt at guiding them into a proper rotation.

BLM spamming freeze on 7 targets was my example. And yes I would still try to guide them. I only mentioned freeze on a bunch of enemies because then they'd have half a thought. They would be correct on aoe, just doing it wrong. That's already much better than no AoE BLM that could be spamming Blizzard 1 instead.

That and honestly after the thunder spamming BLM in Castrum Abania... I don't think I can set this bar much lower.

[Ayer2015]

Put a group of 8 people from the weekly late 24 man raids and put them into v1s. Guess how far they get and how high the % is of the enrage.

Savage is irrelevant to the majority of players. If we are talking savage, I fully agree with all the people saying effort is required and expected. That said, many posters extend their position to casual DF roulette.

[AziraSyuren]

Without naming any names, I encountered a PLD in Deltascape 3.0 Savage during the first few weeks it was out who just randomly used their weapon skills uncombo'd. They were doing next to no damage and it baffled me how someone could get that far and never have learned what their attacks do or what combos are. We didn't clear with them, but I recently saw them back at it again. Months later, and now a handful of O3S clears under their belt, surely they've improved a bit? Nope. Still doing the exact same thing, next to no damage and using random uncombo'd WS's (this time on DRK instead of PLD). If this game is designed in such a way that 7 people will always be able to push someone like that through even the "hardcore" content then what hope is there really?

To be fair that man is a god and an inspiration to us all

[MoroMurasaki]

The single button smasher IS the cruddy tank or healer though, the button just changes to the AOE heal or the flashiest Tank skill instead of the big numbered one for DPS. This is OP's concern. Someone who thinks this is how you play (SMASH DAT BUTTON!!) and anyone who suggests different is elitist or playing the game like a job.
These people aren't going to calmly sit there while you push numbers at them. They're going to yell "YOU DON'T PAY MY SUB" and then report YOU for harassment. They've never read a log, they have NO idea what their DPS or HPS or Threat generation looks like and wouldn't respond to those values even if presented with them.
I don't deny parsers are a valuable tool, but in this case, as in the people the OP is referring to, they are not helpful (and partially I don't think this thread will benefit from the pro/anti parser discussion that always comes out of that) for the type of player who learned incorrectly or refuses to take advice. I'm purposely going to avoid any discussion on the pro/cons and just say in this case it would not benefit anyone to bring it into this interaction.

I can certainly see what you're saying but I think the diffrrence comes down to the skill floor for dps versus tanks and healers. In casual content the skill floor of dps (outside of a specific dps check like the swords in Ala Mhigo) is just like... don't get kicked or DC. For tanks and healers there is an actual function to perform aside from killing enemies that will wipe the group rather quickly when it's left unattended.

I'm not scared of harassment reports because I know I don't harrass anyone. Right now I play on PS4 exclusively so no one can say I'm parsing and when I do give advice it's always respectful anyways.

I agree I don't want this thread to go down that rabbit hole but I do think some sort of very basic meter showing your primary role's metric (at least) compared to what it should be for the content you're running would not be crazy. It wouldn't even be a parser in the classical sense. I don't know, I want to believe that if someone had evidence on their screen that they were playing in a way that inconvenienced others they would try to rectify the situation. Maybe I'm naive though.

I got to say, maybe i misinterpreted the purpose of your thread. Could you clarify something for me?

In your op, you say:
"I'm talking about the BLM that spams Thunder."
"The WAR that presses only Butcher's Block"

Why do you feel a BLM spamming Freeze is okay, especially considering the two examples above are not? Personally, if I am a grouped with a BLM that spams freeze and/or thunder, I would make an attempt at guiding them into a proper rotation.

I know this is a bit off topic but honestly what is your purpose in this thread? Like, you clicked on it and decided to reply but to what end? What are you advocating? It sounds like you have a similar approach to bad play that many of the people you're arguing against employ so then... why are you here?

The only thing I can connect is that you have something against people complaining about those poor players that we all encounter? Like a 'stop whining' goal? If so I feel like that is entirely out of place on a forum designed for discussion of a video game but at least I would know where you stand.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

These types of discussions are funny when you think about it. Its not like people of either opposing opinion are going to change their minds about the subject, yet the pages keep increasing.
You run into lots of people of various skill levels when puging. I don't think I've ever had a person so bad that we couldn't finish a DF roulette outside of 24man raids, in which case it was many people. I sense a lot of exaggeration.

To be fair, this results from better players compensating for the deficiencies of others and how easy dungeons are. Kugane Castle, for instance, can be tanked by DPS if they keep to smaller pulls. When a supposed "expert" dungeon is that easy, it's hardly a wonder even bad players can clear without much difficulty.

[akaneakki]

Savage is irrelevant to the majority of players. If we are talking savage, I fully agree with all the people saying effort is required and expected. That said, many posters extend their position to casual DF roulette.

I agree a bit there, but however there are many players who want to try savage but they don't try early. LIke trying to improve themselves everywhere else first, dungeons could be a start. I honestly think too many people just don't care. Yes I'm aware dungeons are easy and I know it too, but doesn't tell me I should sit back and lets say cast every 10 seconds on healing class, or do storms eye combo on WAR because it gives me more damage etc etc.

[Jijifli]

To be fair, this results from better players compensating for the deficiencies of others and how easy dungeons are. Kugane Castle, for instance, can be tanked by DPS if they keep to smaller pulls. When a supposed "expert" dungeon is that easy, it's hardly a wonder even bad players can clear without much difficulty.

Oh ya that's the other thing.

When you can do the "expert" content without a tank becaue things just don't do anything important enough to care. In Kugane Castle is there even a tank buster check? Or a heavy heal check?

[MoroMurasaki]

Oh ya that's the other thing.

When you can do the "expert" content without a tank becaue things just don't do anything important enough to care. In Kugane Castle is there even a tank buster check? Or a heavy heal check?

You can make Kugane feel more like a real dungeon by always doing full pulls. I've healed a WAR in Deliverance through the entire dungeon who did max pulls each time and it felt fast-paced and nice. It was also only 12 minutes long.

I don't think there are any attacks that will oneshot decently geared DPS though. In terms of healing there is virtually none if you're doing anything but max pulls and the bosses are laughable if you perform basic mechanics like stacking/spreading/dodging AoE.

You could probably go all DPS if one of those DPS was a RDM focused on healing. I actually want to try this now.

[Tridus]

Oh ya that's the other thing.

When you can do the "expert" content without a tank becaue things just don't do anything important enough to care. In Kugane Castle is there even a tank buster check? Or a heavy heal check?

Not really. If you pull wall to wall as Moro said, it can be kinda hurty. That's it. No boss hits hard enough to matter, even if the tank just plants their feet and eats everything. The last boss is a prefect example: it's impossible to wipe if your healer is awake. You can fail the coin mechanic completely and it doesn't matter because it still doesn't do enough damage to kill anyone.

Poor play is considered acceptable because SE says that this is an "expert dungeon" and it's utterly impossible to fail the last boss so long as the healer actually heals. Shinryu normal is harder by far, and that blocks the MSQ. Comparing it to stuff like Auran Vale (which still wipes groups today) is a total joke.

[Tridus]

Savage is irrelevant to the majority of players. If we are talking savage, I fully agree with all the people saying effort is required and expected. That said, many posters extend their position to casual DF roulette.

"Effort is expected" isn't exactly a strict stance in team content. Those are other people you're playing with, expecting them to carry someone because said person thinks that actually trying is "a job" says a lot about that person. Mostly that they're the kind of people you get in group projects in school that make everyone who does try despise group projects and prefer to work alone.

It's not even asking for accomplishment. I don't care if someone is doing top tier DPS in roulette, or if they occasionally mess up and stand in stuff. It happens. I do expect that they at least try. If they can't do that, then they're just bad. If they don't like being called bad, too bad. I don't like having my time wasted by lazy people.