Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

[SharpT]

Such threads was not uncommon to see in wow or mmo with toxic players, where exists people that want game to be played by their rules. answer is simple as usual don't pug with randoms . find friends that play style suits you and forget randoms. but if players pugs and complains about randoms it's bit weird.
From my opinion if i'm with randoms i can expect everything from afk to trolling, kick, fail in sastasha 20 times etc. if it's goes beyond my limits i will leave party and that's all. it's not a job for me but to have fun.
why i said toxic players because they are playing not to fun have but in always rush, thinks that everyone in random party cares about their dps/heal/tank numbers. they create own rules in random pt and complains when nobody follows. just think for moment - play style and things to achieve in game are different. if you complaint don't pug with randoms and create misery for everyone.

[HyoMinPark]

Such threads was not uncommon to see in wow or mmo with toxic players, where exists people that want game to be played by their rules. answer is simple as usual don't pug with randoms . find friends that play style suits you and forget randoms. but if players pugs and complains about randoms it's bit weird.
From my opinion if i'm with randoms i can expect everything from afk to trolling, kick, fail in sastasha 20 times etc. if it's goes beyond my limits i will leave party and that's all. it's not a job for me but to have fun.
why i said toxic players because they are playing not to fun have but in always rush, thinks that everyone in random party cares about their dps/heal/tank numbers. they create own rules in random pt and complains when nobody follows. just think for moment - play style and things to achieve in game are different. if you complaint don't pug with randoms and create misery for everyone.

Or people could put in just a teeny bit of effort? Mayhaps have some respect for the other people they have been matched with and actually try? Even if it's "just a game". Your argument for people to party up with people that match their playstyle/expectations can apply to everyone--bad players included. What about the "misery" Ice Mages cause random Expert groups? The "misery" a MCH in 330/340 causes for a ShinEx farm when they enjoy talking down and ridiculing a fellow DPS in 320 gear for dying to a healer's mistake, who is pulling double the damage the loudmouth MCH is?

I'm not sorry for kicking a tank in Rabanastre who insists on being MT in i310 gear and refuses to use cooldowns for the tankbusters...and who then complains when the healers can't save them from taking a crap ton of unmitigated damage. (And this is a true story: a PLD who would not use cooldowns for tankbusters, died every time, and outright refused to CD when myself and the other healer in our Alliance asked them repeatedly to. And I mean they actually said "No".) I'm not sorry for kicking a full 340, melded NIN from Rabanastre because he died ten times between the first two bosses alone. I'm not sorry for kicking a tank in a V4S group that can't hold hate on Neo while in Defiance the entire time. I'm not sorry for kicking people that refuse to cooperate and respect other members of the group they are paired with.

Mistakes are acceptable in certain instances. But once you get into endgame, and you start advertising that you know what you're doing, you have better prove it.

[Selova]

Now imagine the stickman on the left doesn't have a bad attitude, is 3 years old, and you are met with a page of scribbles because he doesn't quite understand what it means to play tic tac toe. I'm not saying that scribbles are acceptable in tic tac toe, but I'm going to tolerate it because he's 3 and really doesn't know any better

So, I was with you until this part. (bolded for emphasis) You are basically making the assumption that we should tolerate poor performance in a group setting because they COULD be a young kid/child.

You are using a extremely far-reaching hypothetical to defend poor play and unless the person in question comes out and states that they are indeed a young kid/child (which never happens, at most they would just admit that they are new and/or inexperienced) you are never going to know the reason why they are playing poorly, because most people that stick to DF won't even acknowledge that there is a problem, let alone to admitting they are playing poorly.

Hypotheticals are never a good reason to give people that play poorly a excuse for doing so.

[Jijifli]

Didnt SE cut skills and streamline rotations to prevent, poor DPS?

There have been countless times where I will be in a simple duty roulette expert and the dps will be so bad you think its just me and the healer fighting. But as long as everyone is having fun in the same dungeon that we have ran for the 50+ times its ok for DPS to be bad.

SE cannot scale common content to account for terrible players. If they did then everything would be brain dead easy and boring.

The reason they cut down on our abilities was to help controller players with space more easily. It can't improve a player's dps to lower the amount of abilities unless you make abilities combo off of itself (Setting Butcher's Block Combo to one button like pvp, for example.) Obviously though, that'd start to make the game play itself. That'd only hurt. I don't want the game to reach that point.

Also I'm a bit surprised this is still going. Thanks for the replies, whether for or against. I only posted this to begin with to cool off my steam, and I chose for now to actually avoid some content on my higher levels to let my steam stay cooled off for now.

[akaneakki]

. find friends that play style suits you and forget randoms. but if players pugs and complains about randoms it's bit weird.
.

And here I thought when people started an MMO they agreed to play with other PEOPLE/PLAYERS, yet they act like they don't. Your argument is invalid. I would understand if this was a solo game, but sorry to say it's not.

[winsock]

Gague their reaction to said advice.

Did they acknowledge that advice in chat? Did they start to apply that advice to their playing? If so awesome, problem solved. If not I assume they don't have interest in improving.

I don't see why this is such a hard thing to understand.

You don't see it, because you don't realize that have switched topics altogether.

The thread topic is concerned an individual's performance.
Your post is concerned with an individual's willingness to take advice.

For example, say a DPS refuses to AoE DPS despite the a request from the party. When the DPS is kicked, they are kicked because they are unwilling to work with the party. It's not really a performance issue.

For the sake of being thorough, let's say a DPS accepts the request to AoE. You said if they do take the advice, it's "awesome, problem solved"; however let's refocus this on performance, what if despite accepting the advice they are performing poorly? For example, maybe it's a BLM and their AoE rotation is incorrect. You give them advice telling them what the rotation is, but they are screwing it up for one reason or another, maybe just lack of practice. What do you do?

[spagthetapdancer]

I'd just endure because I don't have any sort of authority that grants me the ability to make demands. Appeals, yes. demands, not so much.

[Jijifli]

The thread topic is concerned an individual's performance.
Your post is concerned with an individual's willingness to take advice.

Actually, my vent was on both. People who have extremely poor performance, levels of which a game should not ever allow without others carrying, AND not taking any advice, either ignoring it entirely, or attacking the person giving advice like it was of the greatest insult.

As for the BLM example you have, I'd rather a freeze BLM aoe spam over no aoe spam. Freeze on 7 targets is probably doing more than Blizzard 1.

[MoroMurasaki]

You don't see it, because you don't realize that have switched topics altogether.

The thread topic is concerned an individual's performance.
Your post is concerned with an individual's willingness to take advice.

You're the one who has veered the thread in this direction by questioning HyoMin on how she can measure the effort of a given player because in her (and many other people's) opinion poor play stemming from laziness/being unwilling to learn is many times worse than poor play stemming from inexperience/innocent mistakes.

I have suggested that players who's issues stem from inexperience but are willing to lean aren't lazy, they think they're putting in the same effort everyone else is. These players, when confronted with a way to improve, tend to respond favorably or at least give it a try.

Players who are lazy (so, the ones I would say I don't have time or sympathy for) don't respond favorably to cretique because in general they know what they're doing is enough to not die more often than not and that's enough for them.

You (winsock) are literally the one to bring us to this series of questions. You want to know what kind of poor play is deemed unacceptable by many participants in this thread, I've told you. You want to know how such play can ve separared from simple new players still learning, I've told you.

Now on the PUG issue my only comment is that PUGs are for everyone and if that means you get kicked because you're a no AoE BLM or a no DPS healer or a tank who doesn't mitigate... too bad? Just like you guys can tell us to join PF if we want competent party members I challenge you to open PFs for sub-par runs.

Sure, if you actually get a bunch of bottom of the barrel players you likely won't clear anything. That's why queuing in DF is great for poor players. They might get someone like Sebazy as their cohealer for a trial and literally not have to do anything at all. The issue here is that while 'elitists' (lol, I can't believe I'm starting to actually identify with that term) can form groups for likeminded individuals and clear content that way if we did so exclusively there would be no one in the DF pool to carry the very poor players through their MSQ roadblocks like Nidhogg and Shinryu.

This thread is a rant thread and ranting is healthy sometimes. If people want to complain a bit because they feel overextended trying to cover up for bads... Okay? What's the problem?

To answer the direct question at the end of your post if I found myself in that situation I would apologize for giving unclear advice and clarify what I meant. I don't really give that sort of advice, I don't just throw out vague skill names and hope it gets the point across, but this isn't really related to the topic at hand so I digress.

[Jijifli]

This thread is a rant thread and ranting is healthy sometimes.

My ranting here honestly did help me feel less like an exploding orange and more calmed. Yes, ranting can be be better for health than just bottling it in until it explodes. Part of my posting this was to try and make sure I didn't explode on the next person to fit the extreme requirement. Let some steam out before I made a huge mistake and lose my account over it, you know?