Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[EllieShadeflare]

I guess we should get rid of all those Role actions too. We can't have Black Mage having any sort of non-damage tools because they can only ever have actions for pure damage.

Oh hey, a strawman! Didn't know people like to use those in a serious argument!

In either case, Black Mage doesn't really use their Role Actions for much beyond boosting their abilities. AFAIK:

Swiftcast because Swiftcast.

Maybe Surecast because knockback and stun prevention.

Diversion because we create a lot of aggro.

Lucid Dream as an aggro dump.

And Drain as a self heal.

Besides, Cross-Role is a different beast than a class's inbuilt tools... though it's also a broken system that's not really worth getting into here. My main point is that classes learned by and through Black Mage itself shouldn't contrast with its intended goals. And still writing my response to Llugen.

[GaitSpiff]

Hi, I'm Ellie's friend from discord and I have a few issues with your arguments Llugen, but let's get to the core of it: your argument that BLM needs a Raise, and an oGCD one like you suggest makes no sense because the lack of a raise is not hindering them, and further your solution would not put BLM's Raise "on par" with that of other casters, but instead irritate other casters for petty reasons (let's be real, players would complain because one job could literally raise mana-free, even if it was on a cooldown). As Kabooa said, BLM needs only a tiny adjustment, and a raise doesn't fit that bill. Every job that can currently cast a raise has a hard limit to their mana pool, and even with all the mana regenerating effects in the world that wouldn't fix the issue that giving a raise to BLM presents. Also, let's address your argument of Necromancy in why it is invalid even as a Raise replacement: We have seen only two examples of resurrection in any form in FFXIV: the first being zombification, such as the Fallen in Southern Thanalan or Hildibrand, which requires you to be fully dead; the other being what I'll call Voidsent possession for lack of a better alternative, which we see in Tamtara HM with Avere (or rather, his head), which again requires an already inanimate formerly animate body part. The reason as to why it's invalid is the fact that, in FFXIV, a player is more considered Unconscious rather than actually fully deceased, which already loses the primary requirement for either of the methods previously.

As for your idea of it being an oGCD Cooldown, let's break down why it doesn't fit what would make it viable: there is no major downside other than "Oh, it's on cooldown" unlike with the other casters that have to sacrifice important chunks of their MP, even if theirs would be "unlimited", without a downside BLM loses nothing for the use and gains nothing either; no real room for it in the kit, as even with the relative "uselessness" of Freeze, a raise would probably not fit their kit either. Let's talk about what would make it "community accepted" (even if it would enable groups of people that don't need enabled, like "Green DPS" and lazy healers): there needs to be a downside, and the only one that I can think of that would get them to stop complaining is "make it remove X% of BLM's mana cap every time it's cast", which would cause WAY more issues than it would solve.

Now, as for addressing another comment I saw, I believe someone posted "just make SCH's Raise be a trait and have it's combat raise be a job-specific trait at level 22", which has a few things I'd like to point out wrong: firstly, there's no job where a skill is inherent to one and not another prior to obtaining a job stone, only replacements to existing skills that are tied to the job anyway, such as Summon 1 and 2 replacing the Carbuncles with the Egis and Fairies for SMN and SCH respectively; secondly, it still wouldn't solve the issues both jobs have inherently of needing to be split for better balancing, but that's not the point of the post.

[EllieShadeflare]

So first off, the "lore" is malluable, I've already stated by name necromancy which could very well have a meaningful place on BLM.

If the lore doesn't matter, then why even have a world in the first place? Why even have a setting, and why bother having a Main Story Questline, and why bother putting detail into the world around it? Why bother with the encyclopedia Eorzea? This is innane.

Nothing about Necromancy is ever mentioned in the same breath as Black Mage. Please, go over the lore. Show me where there is a solid, direct connection between the two.

Secondly, "clash with Enochian" means nothing to me. Particularly as an off-GCD, which is what I've been advocating in this thread from the start, would have no effect on the Enochian timer if weaved in with Thundercloud/Firestarter/Swiftcast/Triplecast or even clipped just barely at the end of fastcast Blizzard/Fire III.

It's still an extra button which clashes again with the tunnel vision of the class. The player is paying attention to their surroundings first, their buttons second, their procs third, and anything else is utterly optional. Adding one more thing to keep track of is a terrible idea in all forms. I don't know why you're trying to turn Black Mage busy.

This is circular logic. What is "the status of Red Mage and Black mage in terms of balance"? It's exactly what we're discussing.

Black Mage is a pure DPS class that can't DPS well. It lacks the damage that was promised to make up for its lack of movement and utility.

Red Mage is a class that has no idea if it wants to support or be a DPS with support. Even worse, its primary form of support is only useful for progression and learning, and a particularly bad way of learning.

That is the status of the two jobs. Black Mage has a hard time fitting in because we're not hitting as hard as we need to, and Red Mage has a hard time making it into parties because it lacks the "punch" neccessary to do much against bosses.

"BLM is a pure DPS class" is your next statement, and we have been preaching hard about how there is no such thing as "pure DPS" classes. Utility IS damage. Embolden is damage, Contagion is damage, Trick Attack is damage, it's all d a m a g e. Further still, as I've been incessantly pointing out, the party composition is defined around role, not around class.

Except, no it really isn't. It's actually about the player unless you want to associate yourself with players who can't accept players for what they play as. And I say that's an unpleasant way of living unless your only concern is to "BE THA VERY BESSSST LIKE NO ONE EVER WAAAAS".

But seriously. The Meta is a convenient tool to put yourself into gaming autopilot which is the primary reason the monobuild problem exists and why classes are refused.

Besides the point, every class can clear every piece of content, even if some have trouble with it. If anything, forcing classes to homogenize in tools is no different than attempting to create a monobuild meta.

Red Mage has access to high utility and "low" damage (which I'd still argue with, I had no issues), SMN has access to now very high utility AND very high damage, and BLM has access to no utility and "high" damage which is actually lower. The lack of utility on BLM (read: damage) is just one more reason NOT to take the job in the role slot This is extended to support utility; Devotion also helps with healing (did you know?) and a spot raise or a raise on a healer is dramatically helpful. BLM not only had it's niche utility skill Apocatastasis taken from it at the launch of 4.0, but now has nothing to offer on this front.

FFLogs is your friend, and on its statistics, RDM is the lowest hitting DPS in the game.

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=100

Summoner's high damage is stupidly high, yes, but I think they deserve it, since they're supposed to be a DPS/Support hybrid.

Black Mage's damage is not high enough, and this had been a problem since 3.x, I think. Their damage is tuned neither to make up for their lack of utility, nor their difficulty of use. Black Mage's pure damage isn't high enough at the moment, but the Summoner hits far harder than Black Mage despite their utility.

I'm not actually all that concerned with the loss of Apocatastasis, since it was generally a useless slot on Black Mage anyway. But I am concerned over the lack of damage and a lack of a Raging Strikes replacement.

I already explained with specific examples that this is not true, citing FFX's sphere grid and FFCC's magic system specifically. And, if you want even more argument on this front, since those games were single-player, there was never any concern with "balance" of the class having it or not having it (not to mention phoenix down).

Yeah, you used those examples but they're bad examples because the Sphere Grid requires taking tools out of other characters' movesets in order to use their skills. Crystal Chronicles is an embarassing example, not because it's a bad game (in fact, quite the opposite!) but because Yukes aren't Black Mages. They're just a really magically attuned race. In addition, there is no Black or White distinction in the game. Also, Phoenix Down is an item.

Also, the lack of balance in both of those games ACTUALLY hurts your argument, because it's not a problem if a class can do literally everything in a singleplayer game, but in a multiplayer game, that's called overpowered.

I have repeated specifically over and over that this thread is dedicated to Raise. There are no less than 4 other threads right now regarding BLM damage, and LITERALLY NO ONE has said that the only thing that BLM needs is a raise skill. Please explain to me how this concept is confusing.

I've pointed out that Raise isn't neccessary and that it's a distraction from bigger issues to Black Mage.

That is why I had been so concerned in this regard.
See my above response and why it's important. [/QUOTE]

This logic is counter-intuitive, because the primary tool for continuing a pull and not wiping is..... you guessed it, Raise. So, contrary to your statement, you DO need Raise, or at the very least, underestimate its value.

I... uh, what?

Maybe I underestimate it because me and Gait's static generally saves our Limit Breaks as long as possible, and we have two very competent healers who rez/Healer LB3 if neccessary. or maybe I underestimate it because wiping while learning is very useful because you can reset the whole fight to zero and start from the top using the knowledge we gained from the attempt.

Yes, it does, and undeniably so. This was not an issue pre-4.0 because there were only 2 casters, one of which could raise and one of which could not. There was no reliance on rez dispensing. Now that there IS a reliance on rez dispensing, and 2 out of the three jobs have access to raise, BLM is shunned for progression even harder than it was before.

Black Mage is shunned because its lack of utility is not made up by its damage... which is still lacking. Try again with this argument, because it's one of the worst I've ever seen.

Also, we're not reliant on rez dispensing. In fact, if you're dying too often, you're often not going to have the damage to beat the enrage timer nor the adds. Just saying.

Also side note, WHM doesn't have a heal that doubles as a shield but it does have a shield, and your MP argument later in this quote has nothing to do with skills/abilities only resources, which highlights the lack of understanding of "role balance".

Indeed they do have a shield in a sense. And even then, whether your raise requires MP or none at all, it's still a waste of a button press and a button press that forces the Black Mage to tear away from their current target. They have to target a player and rez them.

Do we really need a Dear RED MAGES...! parody to show why button presses are a commodity of their own?

Developers being "set in stone" means nothing, particularly when new information (read: savage/unending progression) hadn't even happened when they made the statement. Rez Dispenser was a MAJOR SHIFT with the reliance on raise, and as I said in the above quote, this directly affects BLM as it is now the only caster in the role that does not have access to raise. "As far as we know" means nothing, because they can introduce anything they want anytime they want to. As far as we knew, SMN was never going to summon bahamut, but lo and behold, here we are. This isn't an argument, this is pure short-sightedness for what is to come and what is capable of coming. You dont know. And neither do I. And neither does anyone, except the developers. So let's tell them from our perspective how we see the game needing adjustments.

"As far as we know" refers to the fact that ever since 2.0, no class other than Summoner has shifted massively in identity since the launch of the game. Bahamut was always an eventuality (come on, would they REALLY leave out the most iconic summon to all of the series?) and each addition and change requires some kind of justification.

Notice how you re-stated the opinion with no consideration for how I'd already responded with how it would help the class. Furthermore ALL of this is already refuted by the raise being implemented as an off-GCD with high recast timer. I explain this at length around page 10-15 of this thread. [/QUOTE]

Frankly, your explanation is terrible, and all explanations I've seen are terrible. Make the recast too long and it's useless. Make it too short and it's overpowered. You're never gonna win on this front.

Quite frankly, this whole post is pseudo-flaming hyperbole. Lore defense means nothing from our perspective; again the developers can say and do ANYTHING they want and define it to make sense. But this line in particular is weak "having no idea if it's a thing" does not mean that it CANNOT be a thing. Please refrain from throwing me out of the yard, as I am currently a Lalafell.

I throw out the possiblity of Necromancy being linked to Black Mage for two reasons:

A: No proof that we know of.

B: Even if there is proof, there is none that links it to Black Mage.

Maaaaaaybe you should pay attention to the lore again before you try to bend it without reason.

Among other fixes, which are the topics of other threads that hopefully you've been keeping up on, BLM could use either shorter casts or more instant cast GCDs for weaving. With this in mind, weaving in an off-GCD raise would be just as ezpz.

Yes. The discussion for Black Mage's flaws always boil down to "speed," "damage" or utility. The first two I agree with and the third I disagree with because that's not Black Mage. In addition, I don't think you comprehend how much a distraction rezzing can be, especially since a dedicated healer can lose a tank while rezzing a party member... and they're the ones designed for this.

Again, no access to raise is just one more reason that BLM is not taken, not the only reason. Read in my response how Lucrezia admitted to bringing RDM for early prog and then SMN for mid prog and then BRD for the final clear. These jobs "get no credit" for the clear, but their usage in the instances was paramount.

So Summoner needs Dual Cast, and Bard needs Dual Cast and Raise to be good for progress. Got it. /s

But seriously. Stop it. You already lost the argument on that.

I already meaningfully debunked "SAM getting cure" by explaining that there is no precedent for the melee role in this game to use cure of any kind, nor is it asked for or required.

I didn't even continue on the SAM getting cure but thanks for missing the point! My point for comparing the two was comparing the class and the ability. Samurai and Ninja share the same role, but act completely different. One is entirely selfish and the other is a support. Maybe if I said "trick attack" or "shadewalker" the comparison wouldn't have gone over your head.

There IS a precedent with the caster role and raising, which is why this thread exists. I cannot put this any more simply, this logic simply highlights that you are not understanding what "role balance" really means.

Role balance is a myth. Stop working with that myth. Ninja isn't the same as Monk which isn't the same as Dragoon which isn't the same as Samurai. Warrior doesn't use MP just because Paladin and Dark Knight do.

As for "precedent", it may exist for Summoner and Red Mage, but not for Black Mage. Again, their gameplay and their lore has no precedent for it. Their series history has no precedent for Black Mage having an exclusive source of Raising, without the usage of other characters and without items. They cannot rez in a vaccuum. That is where the lack of precedent comes from.

Also, as an aside, you're right that the "best BLMs in the game" can absolutely be wrong, but merely having the experience/expertise gives them qualifying authority to speak on the topic. If someone isn't even attempting to play at these levels, then they literally live in a different world of the game (affectionately named "AFK in Limsa with Shisui armor"), and there is nothing inherently wrong with this, but this also means there is no reason for them to weigh in with their opinion on class balance at a level that they'll never even touch. I hope this makes sense and isn't offensive.

It's not, but I feel like the trouble is that you and your friends might simply be looking at the wrong issue. It'd be like fixing a gun by plugging the hole, to be honest, but nowhere that extreme of counter iniutitiveness.

-I do not believe BLM should get the Resurrection/Raise spell as it is currently
-I do believe that BLM should have acces to raise in the form of an off-GCD, outlined following this bullet list
-I do believe that the lore can be shaped to justify this as either necromancy or arcane magic found in the book of Thal or whatever the developers feel is appropriate
-I do believe that balance is important as well as attention to "homogenization" of casters, hence why an off-GCD ability makes the most sense (one rez dispenser, one swiftcaster/hardcaster, one off-GCD recaster)

Again, nothing in the lore has anything to justify Black Mage Rezzing, nothing in the lore has connected Black Magic to necromancy and nothing in the lore connected Black Magic to Arcane magic (which may not even be a thing in Final Fantasy XIV).

I don't want to keep repeating myself, but distracting a Black Mage from damaging lowers their DPS, since they have to target another player, hit the raise, and return to targetting the boss. This generally requires a second or two to happen, unless you have the party members hotkeyed in such a way that this is simple. Or you have seven macros. Which then begs the question of where you put four of your spells/actions.

I would appreciate it if you would acknowledge that I definitely am not talking out of inexperience nor do I "not understand the class", and that I have considered how the lore might be shaped to fit the skill.

You may very well not be inexperienced, but you come from such a lack of understanding or respect for the job that it's honestly appalling that you'd keep making excuses for a move that derails the job.

Black Mage does not play like Summoner. Black Mage does not have the same level of casting freedom as Summoner.

Black Mage does not play like Red Mage. Black Mage does not have the ability to cast spells rapidly to save their party or make a difference using rezzing without sacrifing damage or attention.

This is the ultimate reason why Black Mage getting a raise would be a problem: it would add nothing of value, and fix nothing.

If you're really concerned about raising, you CAN play as Summoner or as Red Mage. If you're concerned about progressing, just wipe. Granted, this might nto be AS applicable during Ultimate Bahamut, but for the vast majority of Trials and Raids, the fights are so short that a simple wipe wouldn't hurt progress very hard.

[Fannah]

You all put way too much energy into something that won't happen. And even if it does, honestly it doesn't matter, SE will find an acceptable reason to insert it in lore-wise, and they will add a way to make it logical gameplay-wise (having a real cost, in a way or another).

If you believe there is no way lore-wise it will happen, then why defend this idea so much? Do you actually believe it wouldn't be that impossible SE finds a way to add it?

I'm also against Llugen idea as I dislike the "let's make all class the same". But I more feel you don't care about BLM and are just here to laugh of Llugen with everyone else.

[TinyRedLeaf]

^ Lore does matter, or why should we just stop at BLM having a Raise? May as well request that all other classes have some form of revival spell/ability, because lore is flexible right? For example, why can't a Paladin have Raise? After all, the job utilises white magic, does it not? The possibilities are endless.

Frankly, if the community sees Raise as such a vital ability for all classes to have, there is in fact a simple fix: Change Phoenix Down into an item that can be used during combat.

I never could understand why an iconic Final Fantasy item was reduced to such uselessness in this game.

[Fannah]

You don't get it, I really believe it won't happen, that's what I mean. And those defending against the idea that much, it's that, deep in them, believe SE could do it.

Edit : Just to add some powder (whereas I'm against Raise for BLM), someone said BLM use aether, and remember with the Moenbryda arc, we learn that when dying, Ascians soul goes through aetherial rift and reborn with another body (something like this) so they never die. Maybe BLM could learn to use that aether soul of us when dying to put it back in our body before it goes to aetherial rift, it's not shown as something corrupting your soul or evil, Ascians just use it as a physic phenomenon they use at their advantage. The designers could even get inspired by the technology we used to catch Nabriales' soul to put the aether back in our inanimate corpse.

Btw, don't tell me I said things that I didn't say. I think Lore matters, of course. It was an overall "it doesn't matter" that I said, and I never pointed Lore as any good scenarist will find a reason and you will have to get with it.
We are owner of the echo power of Hydaelyn, that could help us to use dark magic without being corrupted by it --> I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying scenarists do what they want and players will have to deal with it, even if that was a mistake of them to do the lore they made.

They could explain the Paladin's crystal is not able to make you use white magic at the point of giving back life to someone. Or why would we even change of crystal when we are a same person able to master all fighting style at max level?

Other than all this, I'm against learning a fight by raising... if you're not good enough to survive, why do you want to even train for the next?... Maybe I'm old school, but I don't remember we have some training special mode in Mario or Sonic to revive at the exact place we died to "see what is next". You suck at dying there, so train again there until you know how to dodge it/use the right oGCD at this moment.

[Dualgunner]

It's an idea worth debating, so people debate it. By responding to and talking with Llugen these people aren't laughing at him--you are when you say that it's not even worth talking about. I find that the most disrespectful thing of all.

[Fannah]

You can say my way to put it is disrespectful, but don't make up things like I'm making fun of anyone, because I'm not. If the idea is worth debating (and yes I agree it is or I wouldn't be here to participate a bit), then other kind of arguments have to be done instead to act like "they are so right there is no other way to think".

Their way of debating is disrespectful.

I didn't say they shouldn't debate. Just don't make up things.

Ps : I also hate when people try to stop a conversation. That's why I talk about the way they debate, not the debate itself (and don't worry, I read it all, in case you wonder).


Edit to answer to Dualgunner on her post just below (seems I posted too many times today) :

First: you'll have to forgive the assumption but everyone else includes you, no?

Don't you understand it's a way of speech when using the term "everyone" in this context? To the point of thinking I was including myself? If the answer is "yes you did understand", then why talk about it? Will it bring anything to your point? Because you dislike what I said so you prefer to act silly? This is not how you will prove you're right.

Also you're making up people laughing at him when they are arguing with his ideas.

The difference is in the words "I more feel like", which in the end wait for the answer of one of those concerned to talk about it. I never said it was the case like a truth, that's the beauty of using some words a certain way.

Also: I'm what, the third person in the first page you started commenting in you accused of 'making up things'? Really?

For anyone puting words in my mouth I didn't say, I will blame them to make up things. There is no fair reason to let people make up things about what I've said.

About my "If you believe there is no way lore-wise it will happen, then why defend this idea so much?" It actually is a way to put it to see the argument of one of those I'm talking about, it wasn't meant to be "be quiet everyone", nor something that ask for someone else to tell me "hey don't say that". You might dislike my way to say it, but I'm wondering what they have to answer to it to actually make the debate further.

Debating is nothing but presenting your ideas as if you are the correct one. Concession is a part of debate, but sticking to your guns isn't a problem.

That must be fun to debate with you irl, if people accept to still do it (you're a lucky one if the same people accept to handle your behaviour acting like you're always right because "debating is nothing but presenting your ideas as if you're the correct one"). Some words change it all to don't look like "hey I have the only truth and you don't" even if you believe you're right (which is logical).

I don't plan on quoting them as I quoted you, while I still said what I think about the way to speak --> I dislike that whole "I quote everything and I don't really read you as long as you don't play that same game of quoting everything and countering every single words of mine, so I can requote every answers or yours to each of my quotes and that will make monstruous books". Honestly, their discussion is going nowhere, they always say the same things again and again hoping the other understand, that's insane.
Btw, you can think I'm wrong because I decide to don't quote everything I disliked in their posts, it's ok, and I'll deal with it.

Now it would be fun the debate keep going like those post didn't exist as they are clearly out of topic and I didn't want the debate to stop, but actually tried to change the way it had (even though you didn't get it).

[Dualgunner]

You can say my way to put it is disrespectful, but don't make up things like I'm making fun of anyone, because I'm not.

First: you'll have to forgive the assumption but

But I more feel you don't care about BLM and are just here to laugh of Llugen with everyone else.

Everyone else includes you, no? Also you're making up people laughing at him when they are arguing with his ideas.

Also: I'm what, the third person in the first page you started commenting in you accused of 'making up things'? Really? You talk later of disrespectful debate, but that comes off as hypocritical when you aren't respectful yourself.

If the idea is worth debating (and yes I agree it is or I wouldn't be here to participate a bit),

You actually objectively don't if you genuinely feel this is a relevant question:

If you believe there is no way lore-wise it will happen, then why defend this idea so much?

To be honest, this is the statement I meant to respond to in my first post. If you feel it is an idea worth debating, why are you asking why it's being debated?

then other kind of arguments have to be done instead to act like "they are so right there is no other way to think".

Debating is nothing but presenting your ideas as if you are the correct one. Concession is a part of debate, but sticking to your guns isn't a problem.

Their way of debating is disrespectful.

I disagree, and will continue to do so as long as argumentative fallacies are not presented in their posts.

Ps : I also hate when people try to stop a conversation. That's why I talk about the way they debate, not the debate itself (and don't worry, I read it all, in case you wonder).

Then I wonder what you find so disrespectful about their debate, because I also have read the whole thing and there has not been anything wrong so far with their communication of ideas.

[StragoMagus]

Remove one spell from the healers cross role skills and add rez. Buff BLM a bit or give a magic defense down to one of its spells like Bliz4.