Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[Llugen]

I'm not arguing with your friend from Discord (who hasn't read anything that I've written on the topic of BLM much less this thread, and probably has heard a one-sided story from you about how I "don't understand the role" because I'm advocating for class/role balance), I'm posting in this thread in response to you. Feel free to invite the person to join this discussion in this if you wish, preferably after reading through the suggestions and thoughts that have been posted already, all 45 pages of them.



I am far from "hiding behind vagueness", you are just legitimately not understanding what I'm saying (note the SAM cure refute that you extrapolated "precedent" to somehow mean "BLM has no precedent for raising in other games"). It would seem that you and the others are almost deliberately misunderstanding what I'm saying, so possibly let's take a deep breath and realize that we want the same thing, really, and that is for BLM to be in a better place than its in right now. For me and many, that means not only increased damage but increased mobility and access to tools for support to compete with the other casters for static positions. Yes, those "tools" include Raise. If one is not concerned with these things (perhaps not you specifically, I just mean in general), then just let those of us who are concerned with them have our say on the matter. Casual players (again, not you specifically, but anyone that isn't attempting to do the highest end content) are not being hindered by suggestions/improvements for high-end play in any way shape or form, so why be so opposed to them?

[EllieShadeflare]

I'm not arguing with your friend in discord (who hasn't read anything that I've written on the topic of BLM much less this thread, and probably has heard a one-sided story from you about how I "don't understand the role" because I'm advocating for class balance), I'm posting in this thread in response to you. Feel free to invite the person to join this discussion in this if you wish, preferably after reading through the suggestions and thoughts that have been posted already, all 45 pages of them.

I have actually posted screenshots of the discussion at hand.

I am far from "hiding behind vagueness", you are just legitimately not understanding what I'm saying (note the SAM cure refute that you extrapolated "precedent" to somehow mean "BLM has no precedent for raising in other games"). Possibly let's take a deep breath and understand that we want the same thing, really, and that is for BLM to be in a better place than its in right now.

Quote me where I am wrong, then. I gave you this courtesy, the least you could do is do the same.

[Llugen]

Sigh. I hate dealing in quotes, it takes years to write. Hang in there and I'll edit this post for it:

Really, the BLM doesn't need a raise because of the lore ..... and the fact that it would highly clash with Enochian and the almost tunnel vision required to play BLM to its fullest damage.

So first off, the "lore" is malluable, I've already stated by name necromancy which could very well have a meaningful place on BLM. Secondly, "clash with Enochian" means nothing to me. Particularly as an off-GCD, which is what I've been advocating in this thread from the start, would have no effect on the Enochian timer if weaved in with Thundercloud/Firestarter/Swiftcast/Triplecast or even clipped just barely at the end of fastcast Blizzard/Fire III.

The caster role is off balance not because of the lack of Raise on Black Mage, it's because of the status of Red Mage and Black Mage in terms of balance.

This is circular logic. What is "the status of Red Mage and Black mage in terms of balance"? It's exactly what we're discussing. "BLM is a pure DPS class" is your next statement, and we have been preaching hard about how there is no such thing as "pure DPS" classes. Utility IS damage. Embolden is damage, Contagion is damage, Trick Attack is damage, it's all d a m a g e. Further still, as I've been incessantly pointing out, the party composition is defined around role, not around class. Red Mage has access to high utility and "low" damage (which I'd still argue with, I had no issues), SMN has access to now very high utility AND very high damage, and BLM has access to no utility and "high" damage which is actually lower. The lack of utility on BLM (read: damage) is just one more reason NOT to take the job in the role slot This is extended to support utility; Devotion also helps with healing (did you know?) and a spot raise or a raise on a healer is dramatically helpful. BLM not only had it's niche utility skill Apocatastasis taken from it at the launch of 4.0, but now has nothing to offer on this front.

As for the claim of "things having not changed since FFIII", well... they really haven't.

I already explained with specific examples that this is not true, citing FFX's sphere grid and FFCC's magic system specifically. And, if you want even more argument on this front, since those games were single-player, there was never any concern with "balance" of the class having it or not having it (not to mention phoenix down).

Black Mage doesn't need, as you have called it, a crutch. What they need is work on the class to actually make its damage viable...

I have repeated specifically over and over that this thread is dedicated to Raise. There are no less than 4 other threads right now regarding BLM damage, and LITERALLY NO ONE has said that the only thing that BLM needs is a raise skill. Please explain to me how this concept is confusing.

But in the end, the clunkiness and the immobility of Black Mage is what kills it.

See my above response and why it's important.

Our trouble isn't that we need rezes, our trouble is simply us learning.

This logic is counter-intuitive, because the primary tool for continuing a pull and not wiping is..... you guessed it, Raise. So, contrary to your statement, you DO need Raise, or at the very least, underestimate its value.

Just because other classes in a role can do something, doesn't mean all should. Just because White Mage is a healer, doesn't mean it needs a heal that doubles as a shield....

Yes, it does, and undeniably so. This was not an issue pre-4.0 because there were only 2 casters, one of which could raise and one of which could not. There was no reliance on rez dispensing. Now that there IS a reliance on rez dispensing, and 2 out of the three jobs have access to raise, BLM is shunned for progression even harder than it was before. This is why the role is imbalanced at such a heavy level. Also side note, WHM doesn't have a heal that doubles as a shield but it does have a shield, and your MP argument later in this quote has nothing to do with skills/abilities only resources, which highlights the lack of understanding of "role balance".

Guess what? The Devs have already set their lore in stone, and Black Mage... hasn't had a raise counterpart since... well, ever in FFXIV's history. And as far as we know, Necromancy is out of the question, void magic is something specifically being avoided by our Black Mages, Arcane Magic is not a thing for BLM, and "Aetherial" is still not an excuse.

Developers being "set in stone" means nothing, particularly when new information (read: savage/unending progression) hadn't even happened when they made the statement. Rez Dispenser was a MAJOR SHIFT with the reliance on raise, and as I said in the above quote, this directly affects BLM as it is now the only caster in the role that does not have access to raise. "As far as we know" means nothing, because they can introduce anything they want anytime they want to. As far as we knew, SMN was never going to summon bahamut, but lo and behold, here we are. This isn't an argument, this is pure short-sightedness for what is to come and what is capable of coming. You dont know. And neither do I. And neither does anyone, except the developers. So let's tell them from our perspective how we see the game needing adjustments.

Having raise is a useless button that wouldn't help the class. I don't want more useless buttons on a class that's already stuck with at least four (Sleep, Freeze, Blizzard II and Scathe) and I do not think for a moment that having raise would make Black Mage better. We'd be the worst candidate for a Raise, because we don't have ANYTHING in our kit to support it, and it'd actually detract massively from our kit.

Notice how you re-stated the opinion with no consideration for how I'd already responded with how it would help the class. Furthermore ALL of this is already refuted by the raise being implemented as an off-GCD with high recast timer. I explain this at length around page 10-15 of this thread.

As far as the lore is concerned, we have no idea if Necromancers are even a thing. There's whispers, there's hints but there's no clear connection to Black Mage, or even possibility by Spoken. Throw that excuse out of the yard.

Quite frankly, this whole post is pseudo-flaming hyperbole. Lore defense means nothing from our perspective; again the developers can say and do ANYTHING they want and define it to make sense. But this line in particular is weak "having no idea if it's a thing" does not mean that it CANNOT be a thing. Please refrain from throwing me out of the yard, as I am currently a Lalafell.

Again, Black Mage has to tunnel vision in their procs and their rotation. They have no room for Mana Shift, much less a Raise. In fact, you disqualified yourself by ADMITTING that your biggest argument for Black Mage need a raise is because they're not being taken to Ultimate Bahamut when the lack of raise... was... uh. Actually not the biggest reason that Black Mage isn't taken.

This would be like giving Samurai a Cure variant. Or White Mage getting Midare. Or Bard getting Midare. They don't need it.

Among other fixes, which are the topics of other threads that hopefully you've been keeping up on, BLM could use either shorter casts or more instant cast GCDs for weaving. With this in mind, weaving in an off-GCD raise would be just as ezpz.

Again, no access to raise is just one more reason that BLM is not taken, not the only reason. Read in my response how Lucrezia admitted to bringing RDM for early prog and then SMN for mid prog and then BRD for the final clear. These jobs "get no credit" for the clear, but their usage in the instances was paramount.

I already meaningfully debunked "SAM getting cure" by explaining that there is no precedent for the melee role in this game to use cure of any kind, nor is it asked for or required. There IS a precedent with the caster role and raising, which is why this thread exists. I cannot put this any more simply, this logic simply highlights that you are not understanding what "role balance" really means.

Also, as an aside, you're right that the "best BLMs in the game" can absolutely be wrong, but merely having the experience/expertise gives them qualifying authority to speak on the topic. If someone isn't even attempting to play at these levels, then they literally live in a different world of the game (affectionately named "AFK in Limsa with Shisui armor"), and there is nothing inherently wrong with this, but this also means there is no reason for them to weigh in with their opinion on class balance at a level that they'll never even touch. I hope this makes sense and isn't offensive.





I think this brings us up to speed with my "quoted refutes". Would have saved me a great deal of time writing this long-winded wall of text had it just been easier to understand to begin with (which admittedly as at least partially my fault), but luckily my raid was cancelled today since christmas eve eve activities. And, to reiterate my stance on the issue:

-I do not believe BLM should get the Resurrection/Raise spell as it is currently
-I do believe that BLM should have acces to raise in the form of an off-GCD, outlined following this bullet list
-I do believe that the lore can be shaped to justify this as either necromancy or arcane magic found in the book of Thal or whatever the developers feel is appropriate
-I do believe that balance is important as well as attention to "homogenization" of casters, hence why an off-GCD ability makes the most sense (one rez dispenser, one swiftcaster/hardcaster, one off-GCD recaster)


Consider:

Shadowraise
Ability
180s Recast
Range: 30y
Cast: Instant
Possibly Lv. 60 if it comes out of the book of Thal

Resurrects a player to a weakened state. Possibly even gives BLM temporary damage up buff to give incentive to use it, potentially with a Dragon Sight-like tether. They could change it however they want to let it reflect "black magic"/pure damage, this is just my surface suggestion for how to work it.


I would appreciate it if you would acknowledge that I definitely am not talking out of inexperience nor do I "not understand the class", and that I have considered how the lore might be shaped to fit the skill.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

Stop using lol caster role as your argument. Each class in each role is incredibly unique. Nothing about bard is similar to machinist aside from increasing party damage. Ninja has 0 similarity to dragoon and samurai has none with monk. The hallmark of the caster role is cast times, not raise.

[Kabooa]

Jeez, it's almost like we're using ultrapowerful arts that have been forgotten for centuries. Also, Red Mage has historically been a White + Black Mage hybrid in almost every other Final Fantasy game they appeared in, including here. There, have your lore explanation.

And if it really were that simple, they've have already done it, Kabooa.

A): Red Mage has historically not had access to the top end spells. Oh look you got Holy and Flare.
B): Also, if we're talking 1.0 to 2.0, Thaumaturge took a complete 180 from what it was. So if there were no significant rewrites, then damn, I guess you don't have to rewrite anything to justify huge mechanic and theme changes. Probably wouldn't need more than a paragraph for "OH and you can get people back on their feet in a pinch"
C): This point about "But infinite MP" is why Llugen constantly calls you on a lack of imagination. You can create tools that serve the same function while having different parameters, or even just have the same tool that is implicitly weighted differently for each class that has access to it.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

A): Red Mage has historically not had access to the top end spells. Oh look you got Holy and Flare.
B): Also, if we're talking 1.0 to 2.0, Thaumaturge took a complete 180 from what it was. So if there were no significant rewrites, then damn, I guess you don't have to rewrite anything to justify huge mechanic and theme changes. Probably wouldn't need more than a paragraph for "OH and you can get people back on their feet in a pinch"
C): This point about "But infinite MP" is why Llugen constantly calls you on a lack of imagination. You can create tools that serve the same function while having different parameters, or even just have the same tool that is implicitly weighted differently for each class that has access to it.

To be fair Kabooa, Llugen consistently calls anyone on lack of imagination, despite their reasons

[EllieShadeflare]

A): Red Mage has historically not had access to the top end spells. Oh look you got Holy and Flare..

This is true, however, it appears that YoshiP and the team chose to consider different ideas for the tradeoff. Notice how Red Mage lacks the Astral Fire/Umbral Ice mechanics, as well as the wide range of healing techniques available to White Mage, including Regen and Medica. At least it keeps itself consistent.

B): Also, if we're talking 1.0 to 2.0, Thaumaturge took a complete 180 from what it was. So if there were no significant rewrites, then damn, I guess you don't have to rewrite anything to justify huge mechanic and theme changes. Probably wouldn't need more than a paragraph for "OH and you can get people back on their feet in a pinch"

Teensy bit different there, bud. Notice that I said 1.2 > 2.0. This is because 1.2 was a soft reboot of the game, with 1.0 being a hot mess.

Again, you really didn't pay attention to the lore if you think that it'd only take a paragraph to explain why Black Mage would gain a Healer role ability, when its lore states it as a pure damager.

And don't pull Memeupo/the 1.0 Thaumaturgy teacher out your butt. He was arrested for using Black Magic, yes, but he was also using more Void Magic... which the 1.0 spells seem to solidify. That's not true Thaumaturgy as we've seen since 1.2, nor is it Black Magic as Shatotto saw it. (Remember, she didn't use Void Magic).

C): This point about "But infinite MP" is why Llugen constantly calls you on a lack of imagination. You can create tools that serve the same function while having different parameters, or even just have the same tool that is implicitly weighted differently for each class that has access to it.

You're asking a class.

Designed for pure damage and damage alone.

To get a support tool.

If trying to homogenize the classes is "being imaginative", I don't know what is.

And don't worry, Llugen. I'm gonna get to your post. It's getting late on my end, but I'm preparing my response and will have it up as soon as I am able.

[Fannah]

Maybe just wait and see for the BLM 4.2 buff is there is really one.

What is needed is to make players choose BLM or another according to what they bring, not to what they don't (except if it's a mandatory tool).
Imo, BLM design is high risk high reward (due to lack of mobility + need to stay in an aoe (Ley Lines)). I think we are several to prefer more risk for absolute top reward instead of less risk for less reward (you don't dps when raising).
While RDM would be just the very safe caster.

The BLM tool could be the need in dps while people are not geared enough to succeed DPS check. If BLM was able to bring that, maybe people would reconsider using them (other than people fans of the class).

[Kabooa]

To be fair Kabooa, Llugen consistently calls anyone on lack of imagination, despite their reasons

Alright. That's fair.

The part that is especially frustrating to discuss is that Black Mage isn't actually in that terrible a position. It is primarily two problem cases. Summoner and Machinist, and that problem case is really only when you're talking about much higher levels of play. It takes a real good summoner to make me look like a wasted slot, and to be honest, it's been -other black mages- that have made me look like I'm flailing at my keyboard.

People advocating for 30% damage bonuses are frankly in the wrong. People advocating only for tool adjustments are slightly less wrong. The current issue is that the mentioned two problem cases are too close to Black Mage, either over or under, while bringing more tools.

So the solution scope is pretty simple to pick from.

A slight damage boost (like 5%) and a unique tool, or

Reduce Summoner/Machinist damage slightly (Like 5%). The tools they bring are part of a bigger issue of tool disparity between all jobs in general but we can't expect that to happen on a major patch. That's Expansion level change.

[Kabooa]

You're asking a class.
Designed for pure damage and damage alone.
To get a support tool.
If trying to homogenize the classes is "being imaginative", I don't know what is.

I guess we should get rid of all those Role actions too. We can't have Black Mage having any sort of non-damage tools because they can only ever have actions for pure damage.