Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[Llugen]

Sorry to break it to you, but "your stupid think moar" (which is a paraphrase of this exact quote: I'm pretty sure they want feedback that is actually intelligent. Giving a Raise variant of any sort to a job that literally should not be using such a thing is not that. Think before you offer advice, especially on topics you obviously don't understand.") is not a valid argument against anything I've said. It is, in fact, flaming: namecalling and heated language.


Please stop trolling my posts, I'd appreciate it.

[EllieShadeflare]

Sorry to break it to you, but "your stupid think moar" (which is a paraphrase of this exact quote: I'm pretty sure they want feedback that is actually intelligent. Giving a Raise variant of any sort to a job that literally should not be using such a thing is not that. Think before you offer advice, especially on topics you obviously don't understand.") is not a valid argument against anything I've said. It is, in fact, flaming: namecalling and heated language.


Please stop trolling my posts, I'd appreciate it.

It was inflammatory in its approach, but... he's not wrong.

Again, Black Mage has to tunnel vision in their procs and their rotation. They have no room for Mana Shift, much less a Raise. In fact, you disqualified yourself by ADMITTING that your biggest argument for Black Mage need a raise is because they're not being taken to Ultimate Bahamut when the lack of raise... was... uh. Actually not the biggest reason that Black Mage isn't taken.

This would be like giving Samurai a Cure variant. Or White Mage getting Midare. Or Bard getting Midare. They don't need it.

Hell, part of the problem with Red Mage is the expectation and reputation of being a Rez Mage, meaning players don't take the job's problems seriously because... they can rez. Really good. To the point that players forget that it's also supposed to be a DPS, or at the very least be a Support. I doubt it was supposed to be a serious Support with only Embolden, but... eh.

Summoner also has a Rez, but so what? It was intended to be a hybrid DPS-Support anyway, having both a buff through Devotion and also a buff depending on Egi.

And honestly? Sfia may be as high-tier a Black Mage as they come but even smart and skilled people can be wrong, that's why the Appeal to Authority fallacy exists.

You're being narrow minded in your thinking. People have given you reasons using gameplay and lore to tell you why a Raise isn't necessary or even a good thing. It's time to stop.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

Oh wow did I make it off the ignore list? Amazing. I mean the only thing he really called unintelligent was your feedback, not you personally. And are you seriously going to call someone on namecalling or heated language? You. Ha. I remember when you made a meme to make fun of someone who disagreed with you.

[Llugen]

Read how RDM was used to push progression for the first week of learning the fight and only after that was BRD taken in. Note: Raise. Besides, I'm talking into the future for Sigmascape progression as well as this current tier. That is not an "admission", I simply stated it is one of the many reasons, not the ONLY reason. Also read how one thing that would significantly solve BLM problems is the removal of clipping through either shorter cast times (which apparently a leaked video showed), or more reliable procs, which would allow ample time for off-GCD weaving (something that I've written in just about every one of my responses that still hasn't seem to have gotten through).


It's nothing like giving SAM a cure variant because the melee role has no precedent for curing. It's not like giving BRD Midare because.... they already have Barrage + Refulgent Arrow. There's no precedent for White Mage getting Midare because they already have their filler nuke. None of these are "like BLM getting Raise" because the rest of these roles are balanced around said skills and said skills have nothing to do with the jobs/roles you've named. Why is this so complicated?

I would love nothing more than for them to remove rez dispenser off red mage, but that is once again the exact title of this thread: either BLM should get raise or SMN/RDM should lose Raise.



Frankly, perhaps I am being narrow-minded in that I want class balance (which everyone should want), but you all are being narrow-minded in that you can't see how or why it's an issue and that it needs to be addressed, no matter how much you care about BLM "lore" (which once again can be adjusted to fit, admit it). The reasons that have been given I've solidly refuted every time, which cannot be said about several of the points that I've made (balance, imagining lore, re-design of the skill as off-GCD). So tell me, it's time for whom to stop?

[PrismaticDaybreak]

We can see what you think is the issue, but you think every lore or gameplay issue that BLM raise causes can just be brushed aside (note retcon has never been popular) , not to mention the numerous BLM players that don't even want raise that you just brush aside because obviously they're not mega elite tier to you. Legit the only one being narrow minded is you, and you even openly admitted to a childish "it's my turn" desire to be OP on the black mage thread. That's not class balance it's just being immature.

[EllieShadeflare]

Read how RDM was used to push progression for the first week of learning the fight and only after that was BRD taken in. Note: Raise.

But that's like saying Bard needs a raise because it can't progress. Huh, it's almost like your argument tears itself apart at the seams.

Besides, I'm talking into the future for Sigmascape progression as well as this current tier. That is not an "admission", I simply stated it is one of the many reasons, not the ONLY reason. Also read how one thing that would significantly solve BLM problems is the removal of clipping through either shorter cast times (which apparently a leaked video showed), or more reliable procs, which would allow ample time for off-GCD weaving (something that I've written in just about every one of my responses that still hasn't seem to have gotten through).

Removal of clipping would only be good. However, the raise is useless on a Black Mage, because AGAIN. There's no point to it. Shantotto said it best, by stating that she developed the art to have the power to destroy celestial bodies. Nowhere in that explanation does it implicate the existence of Raise, or support abilities.

And even then, rez dispensers/raise only does so much for progression. What really matters is getting the mechanics down so you can achieve it without a raise.

It's nothing like giving SAM a cure variant because the melee role has no precedent for curing. It's not like giving BRD Midare because.... they already have Barrage + Refulgent Arrow. There's no precedent for White Mage getting Midare because they already have their filler nuke. None of these are "like BLM getting Raise" because the rest of these roles are balanced around said skills and said skills have nothing to do with the jobs/roles you've named. Why is this so complicated?

I COULD ask you why "black mage really doesn't need a raise and the other two are fine keeping theirs" but that'd be a pot and kettle situation. But! You did hit the nail on the head, in the italicized quote. But let me rephrase it for you in language you can understand:

Black Mage has no precedent for Raising. Black Mage couldn't do it on its own in any other Final Fantasy game without borrowing skills from other skill trees. Black Mage's lore does not support this action. Black Mage's gameplay does not support this.

I would love nothing more than for them to remove rez dispenser off red mage, but that is once again the exact title of this thread: either BLM should get raise or SMN/RDM should lose Raise.

No. Summoner and Red Mage really shouldn't lose their Raises. But under your logic, Ninja needs to lose Trick Attack and other support abilities because it doesn't fit with the other melee DPS jobs, which only have one or two support abilities each.

Frankly, perhaps I am being narrow-minded in that I want class balance (which everyone should want), but you all are being narrow-minded in that you can't see how or why it's an issue and that it needs to be addressed, no matter how much you care about BLM "lore" (which once again can be adjusted to fit, admit it).

People want balance too. However, they disagree with the lack Raise being an issue, and they present far better solutions to the problem. Your idea essentially boils down to the idea of "Someone else has cool thing! Give me cool thing!" I hate to break it to you, but... FFXIV has assymetrical balance between classes. Not every class has direct counterparts to abilities and spells, and not everyone fulfills the same role the same way.

As for the lore, sure, go ahead. Break the lore that people have been clamoring behind and respecting. If YoshiP implemented your suggestion, then I'm sorry. Your solution would only cause people to leave the game in masse due to the flagrant disrespect. I and others have proven why the lore simply cannot support Black Mages raising, but you're screeching "BUT GIVE BLM RAISE NO MATTER THE LORE" in the same way that the kid down the street is trying to say Marion Suestrings should be more powerful as a Jedi than Luke or Anakin Skywalker after two minutes.

The reasons that have been given I've solidly refuted every time, which cannot be said about several of the points that I've made (balance, imagining lore, re-design of the skill as off-GCD). So tell me, it's time for whom to stop?

You. You haven't refuted anything. People have responded to your points, but you only respond with "STOP FLAMING ME" or "NO BUT YOUR WRONG" and then use the same exact points that were refuted.

Reimagining the lore would work in a NEW Final Fantasy MMO or in your own MMO idea. Not inside of the game as is.

Black Mage having a rez wouldn't improve balance and it simply doesn't fit the role.

So please. I've tried my best to respect your opinion, but you have done nothing to respect others'.

It's time to stop.

[EllieShadeflare]

I don't like to double pose, but... my Discord had a discussion with another player having a lot to say on the subject.

I'll give him one right here: VerRaise makes sense on RDM because it's a mixture of White and Black Magics, one of the core aspects of it is the propensity for it to aid as well as ail. Raise is on Summoner SOLELY because it was needed to be put on arcanist and given battle-raise ability so a Scholar can go as far back as Sastasha and do everything a Conjurer could at that point. If Square can fully separate Arcanist being the basis for both Summoner and Scholar, then it's likely Summoner wouldn't have a raise anyway. Your argument of adding one to BLM for reasons of balance is innane because all fights are designed that anyone playing any job will 100% be able to clear the content, even IF some jobs have it "easier" because they have one or for other reasons. The main issue for BLM right now is simply because they're balanced (for the most part) around their ability to hunker down and drop the base while standing still; there are ways to get around their inherent lack of mobility in Aetherial Manipulation, Triplecast, and Swiftcast, however that doesn't get to the inherent reason why BLM isn't as highly valued: it's a turret job in movement content because movement content doesn't make it any easier for them. If we went back to a boss like Refurbisher, then BLM would excell because movement is at a minimum there. BLM is also balanced on their cast times being longer due to the higher the potency of their spell. This is not something either of the other two have affecting them for one reason or another. If you want Square to change something to make BLM work well in all situations, make this aspect much less prominent and I promise BLM's damage would rise far above what SMN can reach while having a raise

As for your lore rewrites, give ONE example after the 1.0 to 2.0 shift where YoshiP and Square have made a major change to the lore of any single job in the game. Not even when PLD was at its worst in 3.0 did YoshiP say "okay, we need to add a new skill to PLD, but it doesn't fit the lore so we're going to do a small rewrite right here." It's not going to happen, there have been surprise twists, but they've always been within reason due to specific details. And finally, your argument about a proc based playstyle is very reminiscent of another job in this game right now . . . oh yeah, Red Mage, the job that can put out decent numbers but has its damage limited by one or two procs and literally lives off of the back of Dualcast. Yeah, BLM has a few procs too, and they can definitely change the way the job is played, but let's point out the inherent issue here: proc rate. Without the use of Sharpcast to force a proc, Thunder3 has a proc rate of roughly 10%, and is entirely dependant on RNG to be procced in the first place. Firestarter is close to that mark, being a roughly 15% proc rate off of Fire 1, which in the normal Stormblood rotation for standard content is used maybe once every 2-3 Fire 4s. Not really the easiest thing to proc unless you're going beyond O2S into the world of Halicarnassus, who encourages a regression towards the ARR rotation due to its far shorter cast times giving more time to move.

Finally, your argument about someone being forced to play a job is for hardcore world-first minded raiders. The casual raiding community cares more that you'll be paying attention to what's going on and doing your job rather than if you have this utility, that utility, or another utility, and are probably raiding to have fun and hang out with other people while taking on content that's far less boring and mind-numbing than dungeons. You can argue that there are other games for that if you want, but I'll stand by the fact that there are more people out there that'd rather have fun while they clear than actually clear the content. There is no group in the world that would like to go clear Bahamut Prime right after they got sprayed by a skunk and then had their foot slammed in the door, or worse: after having played a match of L.o.L. with all randoms. The mood won't be good and it's going to disrupt concentration. A combat raise isn't going to suddenly get high-level raiders to care about BLM any more than they do now, and low level raiders don't care, so in the end, your point about why they do need it is moot on all counts. Good DAY sir/madam.

[Kabooa]

I don't like to double pose, but... my Discord had a discussion with another player having a lot to say on the subject.

It makes zero sense for Red Mage to have Verraise. It barely makes sense for any healer class to have Raise from a lore standpoint, because there ain't no coming back from the dead on a casual basis. You can easily remove Raise from arcanist by putting "Raise" as a level 22 ability the Scholar gets access to. It isn't like they have an entire syncing system that works as implemented. I can't speak for the implementation but fundamentally it can't be more than a database entry that's otherwise left blank for Jobs or copy-pasta'd from Classes.

I mean, this is kind of an unfair point: We can't prove they rewrote anything because we have no access to the source material they have in development, where shit likely does change quite a bit. Might as well prove they -didn't- rewrite anything from conception to implementation, and it's not like we don't have Dark Souls level of vagueness that allows them to. How do Red mages handle being capable of using both White and Black Magic despite the two clearly being in opposition with theme, style, and control? "We fake it" is basically the answer.

The hardcore scene drips down to the bottom. Anyone who enjoys trapping can easily see how Party Finder reflects those attitudes. Black Mage gets excluded, Samurai gets excluded, Monk gets excluded. It doesn't happen 100% of the time, but it happens enough to the point it can be frustrating. -It affects casual play by virtue of existing, because where do you think casual players get their information?-

[Llugen]

...You actually did not understand a word I said in my post. This is quite heartbreaking.


It doesn't matter whether or not Black Mage in particular has a precedent of raising (which by the way, it can, I already gave the FFX/FFCC examples despite your closed mind), the caster role has one and that's all that matters. You've done little to respect my "opinion" outside of not flame (which now you're even starting to do that) and opinion is in quotes because the role is off-balance whether you or I like it or not (surprise, I do not like it). This isn't opinion. How it should be fixed is opinion, but the fact that it is off-balance is not.

I would laugh out loud so hard if I saw any player leave the game due to "flagrant disrespect" when the developers come out with a meaningful implementation of a raise skill on Black Mage because this game means that little to them. And good riddance, quite frankly. If your solution to your job being changed in a way you might not like is to leave the game, then by all means, leave the game. I will continue to advocate for changes that the jobs as a whole need based on my experience and the experience I witness with others at my level of play.

[EllieShadeflare]

It makes zero sense for Red Mage to have Verraise. It barely makes sense for any healer class to have Raise from a lore standpoint, because there ain't no coming back from the dead on a casual basis. You can easily remove Raise from arcanist by putting "Raise" as a level 22 ability the Scholar gets access to. It isn't like they have an entire syncing system that works as implemented. I can't speak for the implementation but fundamentally it can't be more than a database entry that's otherwise left blank for Jobs or copy-pasta'd from Classes.

Jeez, it's almost like we're using ultrapowerful arts that have been forgotten for centuries. Also, Red Mage has historically been a White + Black Mage hybrid in almost every other Final Fantasy game they appeared in, including here. There, have your lore explanation.

And if it really were that simple, they've have already done it, Kabooa.

I mean, this is kind of an unfair point: We can't prove they rewrote anything because we have no access to the source material they have in development, where shit likely does change quite a bit. Might as well prove they -didn't- rewrite anything from conception to implementation, and it's not like we don't have Dark Souls level of vagueness that allows them to.

There wasn't a major rework between 1.20 and 2.0 for GLD/PLD. Seriously, you can find the archives. In fact, while some abilities were lost at first, they were returned at a later date or under different names, most notably Divine Veil, Clemency Holy Succor, Goring Blade, Sheltron Aegis Boon (but with HP recovered instead of MP), and Total Eclipse War Drum.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...tch-1.20-Notes

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post580997

How do Red mages handle being capable of using both White and Black Magic despite the two clearly being in opposition with theme, style, and control? "We fake it" is basically the answer.

Because they worked out their differences, and the BLM quests from 51-60 touch on the similarities between the two jobs including pointing out how they're both implicated in the War of the Magi. Actually, if you really want to know the similarity, both jobs use the aether of the land and can cause it harm. However, while Black Magic simply uses the aether as fuel, White Magic is guided by the Elementals. Putting two and two together isn't AS hard from that point and then they combined the two arts as a sign of the refugees' unity.

The hardcore scene drips down to the bottom. Anyone who enjoys trapping can easily see how Party Finder reflects those attitudes. Black Mage gets excluded, Samurai gets excluded, Monk gets excluded. It doesn't happen 100% of the time, but it happens enough to the point it can be frustrating. -It affects casual play by virtue of existing, because where do you think casual players get their information?-

This is kinda the problem with Overwatch, and why the attitude of "Bring the Player and not the Class" should be the consideration. But the problem with Black Mage is still not the lack of Raise, it's the movement and the damage.

...You actually did not understand a word I said in my post. This is quite heartbreaking.


It doesn't matter whether or not Black Mage in particular has a precedent of raising (which by the way, it can, I already gave the FFX/FFCC examples despite your closed mind), the caster role has one and that's all that matters. You've done little to respect my "opinion" outside of not flame (which now you're even starting to do that) and opinion is in quotes because the role is off-balance whether you or I like it or not (surprise, I do not like it). This isn't opinion. How it should be fixed is opinion, but the fact that it is off-balance is not.

I would laugh out loud so hard if I saw any player leave the game due to "flagrant disrespect" when the developers come out with a meaningful implementation of a raise skill on Black Mage because this game means that little to them. And good riddance, quite frankly. If your solution to your job being changed in a way you might not like is to leave the game, then by all means, leave the game. I will continue to advocate for changes that the jobs as a whole need based on my experience and the experience I witness with others at my level of play.

Please. Please Please PLEASE actually address my and my Discord friend's complaints, DIRECTLY.

Don't hide behind vagueness and "hah, you don't even understand meeeeee."

Point to where I have misrepresented or misunderstood you. You are not doing a good job defending your opinions at all, and you're only sounding like a perpetually tantrumming child.

I have directly quoted you each time I made a point. Please, set the record straight.

One more quote from my Discord.

Every single job in FFXIV with Raise ability has finite mana, where overextending themselves through constant raises hurts their performance in areas other than just damage/healing output. Putting raise on BLM would encourage it to be brought by lazy healers or Green DPS who would blame the BLM for not being the one to raise since "you have infinite MP anyway, you're the person who stands to lose the least from raising someone.

There is not a single situation where BLM would become anything more than a community joke and treated like a raise bot even moreso than RDM currently is if one was added.

Even making its raise MP free or an oGCD would lead to the same effect.