How would you make RDM more complex?

[PrismaticDaybreak]

I think part of the problem is I might be using complexity when I mean how to make the job feel more rewarding, which may not be an issue to some, but it seems like the payoff for putting in extra effort feels really low. If that makes sense at all. I don't mean to assume that all RDMs feel the same way either, considering how few people use the forums in most games it's hard to tell what the consensus is.

[Claviusnex]

I thought SE's stated direction was to try and make the jobs less complex. This seems to be going against that idea of simplification.

[Dualgunner]

It would be neat if there were more things to spend Black/White Mana on than the sword combo--even if it was other combos that different things that led into different finishers. As far as DoTs go I don't want one out of pure "I'm so happy I finally have a job with no DoT I've been playing this game for four years and everything is dots dots dots dots help there are so many dots Im drowning".

I'd like more sword combos that do different things. Maybe an ability that would act like Hissatsu: Kaiten that could be used on Verfinisher or Redoublement? Maybe a sword combo specific to generate mana, with en-fire and en-aero to decide which mana would be built up? Maybe a sword strike that resets the cooldown of Acceleration?

[ChaozK]

Id personally like to have more freedom in using melee combos. Maybe they could give a melee version of jolt that doesnt consume red mana but triggers dual cast, which you could use in movement heavy situations where you cant cast. Also maybe a trait that reduces red mana cost for the melee combo would be nice.

[Shurrikhan]

Then don't engage me in discussion, if you don't want to discuss it. Seems to me that you can't help but engage people with differing opinions.

Your thread title explicitly asks, "How would you make RDM more complex?" And you get mad when people say they wouldn't.

Doesn't this work both ways? If you enter a thread specifically on making Red Mage MORE complex, why would you then engage in a merely adjacent discussion and complain that it is marginalized as such, let alone by the person who laid out the parameters for the thread's purpose?

Yes, an external voice saying "Personally, I don't want this thread to go anywhere, because it would result in something I'd dislike," is fair, but it's certainly not wholly relevant to the thread's stated purpose.

And if we take the purpose of the thread more broadly, as its ideas being aimed at the improvement of RDM, and that the design path this one focuses on in particular may yield poor results for its general purpose, then perhaps your warrants ought to be directed towards what does or does not provide good RDM gameplay to you and others with similar tastes, rather than muddying the waters with what the devs would or would not prefer to do -- which was already presented as irrelevant.

Of course, now I'm the worst of the bunch, as I'm spending a post commenting on a post on commenting on a post on commenting on a post... (See prior post for on-topic thoughts.)

[StragoMagus]

While I find RDM mechanics to be the best for its simplicity and hope it stays that way for my sanity, what about applying minor but long dots from one of its moves (like the gap closer/maker) then a Verflare/verholy will consume it all to apply full potency as long as mana difference is within a certain amount?

[Shurrikhan]

I thought SE's stated direction was to try and make the jobs less complex. This seems to be going against that idea of simplification.

Was BLM actually made any less "complex"? Or SMN? Or DRG? Or Bard? And more importantly, the situation of, say, DRK... or MNK... actually been improved thereby, whether in your opinion or by popular concensus?

Without a more specific definition, no goal they state regarding "complexity" is going to be something we can coordinate with and compromise for. And that still begs the question of whether we even should initially try for compromises to begin with, or whether there's a single thing here that will ever be read by anyone of importance. Whether one views the situation pessimistically or optimistically, however, the best course of action remains the same: coordinate among ourselves, to the best thoroughness we can, what would be fun, while enjoying that creative process...

[TarynH]

Doesn't this work both ways?

Not in this particular case. I never said I wouldn't engage in a discussion with someone. The OP made it clear they wouldn't, but proceeded to do so anyway. (Actually began the discussion.) But it's all moot now. Water under the bridge.

[Miyoyo]

I enjoy Red Mage as the simplest dps and can definitely see why others want to keep it that way, personally however its missing jussssst a little bit of depth for me to find it enjoyable.
So with that being said...
I'd like to see two dots, 40 potency or so, 30s duration (in line with bards) and gives 1 black/white mana every tick.

Then at a higher level, give them a scourge like ability, spread the dots but with half the duration, so you'd put the dots on a single target, then spread it to 5 or 6 targets with a 15s duration.

This would add a tiny bit of complexity to single target gameplay, having to keep up two very simple 30s dot but also do a lot for red mages rather poor aoe game.
On large pulls you'd essentially be gaining anywhere between 6 and 10 white/black mana every 3 seconds which gives you a lot more mana to spend using Moulinet as opposed to almost entirely scatter.

Although i don't imagine necessary they might cap the mana generation at 10.

[Dualgunner]

I'd like to see two dots, 40 potency or so, 30s duration (in line with bards) and gives 1 black/white mana every tick.

*cries*

Why does everyone want DOTS

I know they're a simple way to add complexity but every job does it (except DRK)