How would you make RDM more complex?

[Karshan]

I think part of the problem is I might be using complexity when I mean how to make the job feel more rewarding, which may not be an issue to some, but it seems like the payoff for putting in extra effort feels really low. If that makes sense at all. I don't mean to assume that all RDMs feel the same way either, considering how few people use the forums in most games it's hard to tell what the consensus is.

Dw you made your point clear and it is making sense.

Where I agree with you is that there is not much room of effort on RDM to go beyond, because the basic core is really close to optimal rotation. So I see how that feels unrewarding because most of the gains are from team sync and not personnal improvment.

What people are worried about is that, if they were to change that, there is a chance that to avoid power creep, devs could add mechanics that end up also lowering the floor rather than just raise the ceiling, leaving RDM who don't want to spend hours on a dummy with poorer DPS (or a wider gap).

I really can understand that you'd like the ceiling changed a bit and mostly you want new ways to attein it (and personnal ways not just party synergy). But narrowing the gap is the goal they had on SB and you can clearly see the new classes were designed with that in mind.

What I'm looking for, and I'd like that for every class, is if the best of the best do 5600 DPS, the ones who make good efforts do 5000, then just playing the basic core (correctly, but just basic) would still give you 4400ish DPS. RDM has that, making progress and new fights really satisfying because you can enjoy them and not just be focused on your cockpit like BRD or SMN. Doing just the core on SMN for instance doesn't cut it. And you said you put SMN aside because of the "things to track" bloat. Or maybe I read wrong.

But if RDM complexification goes beyond your control, what are you gonna do ?

I can tell you from experience for SMN : they increased the ceiling, the skill gap is huge, and i really don't like being less effective with it than I was in HS. I tackle 2 or 3 dummies everyday, but since I've been playing for 2 years, I shouldn't have to do that. So I'm kinda pissed about it. And I don't really oppose to it for RDM, but I don't wish it on them, leaving many average Red mages sad for the sake of optimization of complexity or depth.

The way it is now I understand that having the same amount of effort required to go from 4400 to 5000 on RDM than say 3800 to 5300 on SMN, feels much more rewarding on SMN (or rather, unstatisfying on RDM). Now if they can make it so that doing the 4400 is simple, 5000 complex and 5600 hellish, but it would be the same for every class, it still would feel rewarding to be 5000+.

[Shurrikhan]

snip

Personally, I don't like when proper performance comes down to esoteric memorization and bursts of precise activity between banal filler time, and it's far from me to wish that on RDM in any way. I want a Red Mage that still feels very capable when played at a relaxed style, but has a lot going on not just hidden away under the hood, but also readily viewable to the player, from which to find internal mechanical enjoyment from choices made. At present, RDM feels like it has precisely one choice at optimal play -- whether to open with Verthunder or Veraero.

While most jobs similarly boil down to an embarrassingly linear and scripted form of play, downtime at least impacts more than a single alignment (two, I suppose, if melee range is denied, preventing CaC and dE from being spent before Manafication, while spells are still possible) and can at least somewhat allow the player to reshape their actions accordingly, and most other jobs at least have a few different openers possible that have distinct rotational effects down the line while remaining equally or almost equally optimal in any given situation (in addition to a couple more fight-specific openers). RDM has none of that, making everything feel very same-y.

And that's not even a biggest problem; it's just the fact that the entire playstyle between burns feels like 1-2-1-3-4-2-5-3-1-6 back and forth, back and forth, augments the same as initials, and sift through oGCDs mostly as they come. It doesn't really seem to "move" through its rotations even in the shallow sense of combo chains or Astral/Umbral stages or reDoTs or DWT stages, etc., etc. It just all feels so same-y to me.

[Claviusnex]

I thought SE's stated direction was to try and make the jobs less complex. This seems to be going against that idea of simplification.

[Shurrikhan]

I thought SE's stated direction was to try and make the jobs less complex. This seems to be going against that idea of simplification.

Was BLM actually made any less "complex"? Or SMN? Or DRG? Or Bard? And more importantly, the situation of, say, DRK... or MNK... actually been improved thereby, whether in your opinion or by popular concensus?

Without a more specific definition, no goal they state regarding "complexity" is going to be something we can coordinate with and compromise for. And that still begs the question of whether we even should initially try for compromises to begin with, or whether there's a single thing here that will ever be read by anyone of importance. Whether one views the situation pessimistically or optimistically, however, the best course of action remains the same: coordinate among ourselves, to the best thoroughness we can, what would be fun, while enjoying that creative process...

[Dualgunner]

It would be neat if there were more things to spend Black/White Mana on than the sword combo--even if it was other combos that different things that led into different finishers. As far as DoTs go I don't want one out of pure "I'm so happy I finally have a job with no DoT I've been playing this game for four years and everything is dots dots dots dots help there are so many dots Im drowning".

I'd like more sword combos that do different things. Maybe an ability that would act like Hissatsu: Kaiten that could be used on Verfinisher or Redoublement? Maybe a sword combo specific to generate mana, with en-fire and en-aero to decide which mana would be built up? Maybe a sword strike that resets the cooldown of Acceleration?

[ChaozK]

Id personally like to have more freedom in using melee combos. Maybe they could give a melee version of jolt that doesnt consume red mana but triggers dual cast, which you could use in movement heavy situations where you cant cast. Also maybe a trait that reduces red mana cost for the melee combo would be nice.

[StragoMagus]

While I find RDM mechanics to be the best for its simplicity and hope it stays that way for my sanity, what about applying minor but long dots from one of its moves (like the gap closer/maker) then a Verflare/verholy will consume it all to apply full potency as long as mana difference is within a certain amount?

[Maero]

I am not sure tbh.
Having mained blm for years the simplicity of Red Mage is relaxing, lol
However i do think it needs to be more complex and move away from the role as just a "progression" dps, there is no reason why it could not be made more complex and do more damage.
Changes of course would need to be made to embolden and veraise but more spells/attacks would be very welcome along with more options for aoe. Enchanted moulinet and scatter is meh.
I would also love to have more spells/attacks and not dots (that belongs to smn) but perhaps something that adds status ailments like some that cause slow, etc...
Of course just adding more spells/attacks does not necesarily make a job more complex

[popotaro]

Tbh I would not. Though I'd like to have more impressive graphic FX, as I find those really lackluster..

[EllieShadeflare]

I'd just make Verwater/Verblizzard 150-200 potency but with a similar 5s cast time like on Veraero/Verthunder. Also, Enchanted Moulinet should be 250-300 potency.

...and maybe increase the potency of Enchanted Riposte to 250, Enchanted Zwerchau to 300, and Enchanted Redoublement to... 500.

I'd almost suggest an Ultima spell for an AoE finisher as well, but Iunno. :V