Pre-pull regen?

[Gemina]

I can't think of any situation where a pre pull Regen is optimal. Not from any of the content I participated in anyway.

Let me put it this way. If tanks had the ability to Regen themselves, it would be their go to ability during pulls. When the healer does it, the tank has to compensate. If he's good, he'll take the hate off of you without too much risk to you, but if you have to heal yourself during a pull, something's not right.

[Sebazy]

I can't think of any situation where a pre pull Regen is optimal. Not from any of the content I participated in anyway.

Just to clarify here, for both raids and dungeon bosses, pre pull Regen is 100% 'optimal' from the perspective of trying to maximise your DPS. If the tank is pulling with their face rather than a shield lob or such then that's on them. But for a white mage, being able to spend your entire PoM duration right off the bat throwing nothing but stones is a very significant gain. Not to mention, with a pre pull regen, dots are applied and I'm throwing rocks from the second GCD of the encounter, if I wait until the tank has tapped the boss I'm not throwing any stones until the 4th GCD at best.

For trash, again, it pains me to say it, but from my very extensive testing, a mid pull regen is 'optimal' in terms of DPS potential. However, that's absolutely reliant on your tank being able to cope with the agro. Some can, some can't and this is absolutely critical to work around.

I'll openly admit I'm very cautious about early regens at least for the first pull or two whilst I get a feel for what the tank is doing, however I'll absolutely be dotting things up whilst we are moving and I'd expect any decent DPS to be doing the same, the agro from that is a little more delayed giving the tank a chance to tag stuff first.

[Gemina]

Just to clarify here, for both raids and dungeon bosses, pre pull Regen is 100% 'optimal' from the perspective of trying to maximise your DPS.

I stopped reading right here.

[Sebazy]

I stopped reading right here.

Why so? Because you aren't concerned with your DPS? If that's the case, isn't that a bit of a miss-use of the word 'optimal'?

[Gemina]

Why so? Because you aren't concerned with your DPS? If that's the case, isn't that a bit of a miss-use of the word 'optimal'?

Not at all. I stopped reading because maximizing dps isn't even in the realm of what this thread addresses. Posts like yours, is what veers a thread off topic, and into another healer dps debate. Sorry, not taking that bait.

Basically, what I'm saying is I can't think of any situation where it is optimal for the healer to grab initial hate, because that is exactly what Regen does. Your tank will always have to compensate for this, and work just a little harder, even if just a shoulder shrug to get the hate off of you. Sure, your dps goes up, and the tank's goes down.

When I speak optimal, I'm talking the entire party. Not just my own.

[Avatre]

Basically, what I'm saying is I can't think of any situation where it is optimal for the healer to grab initial hate, because that is exactly what Regen does. Your tank will always have to compensate for this, and work just a little harder, even if just a shoulder shrug to get the hate off of you. Sure, your dps goes up, and the tank's goes down.

Only time I can see that being a reasonable choice, is if there is no tank because they DCed/left right as the dungeon started. Had this happen in Fractal while I was leveling my AST. Tank left right away, and the two DPS and I decided to go ahead without a tank until we got a replacement(which came in 3/4 of the way through first boss). As healer, I tried to keep agro from the majority of the mobs so that I didn't have to heal everyone constantly, and just myself.

[CreinCrein]

Basically, what I'm saying is I can't think of any situation where it is optimal for the healer to grab initial hate, because that is exactly what Regen does. Your tank will always have to compensate for this, and work just a little harder, even if just a shoulder shrug to get the hate off of you. Sure, your dps goes up, and the tank's goes down.

When I speak optimal, I'm talking the entire party. Not just my own.

Except the tank's dps doesn't go down. Tomahawk/shield lob/Unmend hit before the regen tick goes off and there's absolutely no way to grab hate in savage scenarios off a single regen unless the tank is terrible. In all situations pre-pull regens is the most optimal way to start a pull, just depends on how good a tank is at timing their aggro skills.

[bounddreamer]

Except the tank's dps doesn't go down. Tomahawk/shield lob/Unmend hit before the regen tick goes off and there's absolutely no way to grab hate in savage scenarios off a single regen unless the tank is terrible. In all situations pre-pull regens is the most optimal way to start a pull, just depends on how good a tank is at timing their aggro skills.

Most of us are talking about dungeon trash pulls, not O4S.

Tomahawk gets ONE mob. And as soon as I tag that mob, the other two start heading for the healer. I'm not wasting my steel cyclone on two mobs. So now I have to stop the pull's momentum, line up overpower for those two stray mobs or hope two tomahawks will work, then keep going to the next group by which point the dps are going ham on the mobs because they think I'm done with the pull.

It's awkward. It's unnecessary. Don't do it with randos. It may seem more efficient to the healer who's doing it, but it's usually much messier and more inefficient than what healing they thought they'd be saving with a regen.

[Gemina]

Except the tank's dps doesn't go down. Tomahawk/shield lob/Unmend hit before the regen tick goes off and there's absolutely no way to grab hate in savage scenarios off a single regen unless the tank is terrible. In all situations pre-pull regens is the most optimal way to start a pull, just depends on how good a tank is at timing their aggro skills.

Actually it does. How else does the tank compensate in this situation? A tank shouldn't be tanking in DPS stance if any of their icons in the enmity list are not red. And in this situation, not only are they not red, these mobs aren't even on their enmity list! If they are focused on taking hate onto themselves, especially if someone else in the group has it, they have to focus on enmity gain instead of damage, so it relatively goes down. This isn't the worst of it though.

As was pointed out to you, a tank's long range skill tags only one mob out of a pack. All the others, however many there are that link, will beeline the healer. Not only does the tank's DPS go down in this situation, the DPS who are aware go down as well. If they start blasting, the tank will be forced to stop, which completely puts the pull to a halt, as a result, less dmg per gcd is going out because they're spent on three mobs opposed to 6+. If the DPS don't attack so the tank can take the hate off of the healer, again, the DPS of the entire group goes down. All because the healer wants to maximize their damage. Something that isn't even required of them, as the expectation of an optimal/ideal healer is one that keeps everyone alive, while tossing out damage when heals aren't needed.

Even in a situation where you have a good tank that can effectively erase the inconvenience, it's sloppy, it's clunky, and most tanks can't and won't be bothered to cancel it. If you want to start damaging early, it would be more optimal to observe the tank to see if they AoE the pack, and then alternate the mobs pulled by hitting them with an insta-skill like Aero2/Bio2; hell, even swiftcast and Aero3 if the pack is tight enough. You can't do any of this, if you grab the initial hate, because you have to wait for the tank to get that hate off you. How are you maximizing damage when you have to spend gcd/ogcds on yourself?

Now, against bosses, you are talking about one mob. So casting regen here does nothing disruptive assuming the tank doesn't just run-agro the boss. I suppose in four-man, this could be optimal considering the tank will start getting auto attacked immediately after being targeted. In everything else, they will likely have a shield up, and your GCD might be better spent elsewhere, otherwise the first several 1-2 ticks of the regen will all be over-heal. We are quite honestly not required to heal until after damage is dealt. Pre-emptive regens, really just aren't necessary if they are going to cause you to get hate.

[Taika]

Not at all. I stopped reading because maximizing dps isn't even in the realm of what this thread addresses. Posts like yours, is what veers a thread off topic, and into another healer dps debate.

I'm sorry, but how is "this is the optimal way to use this skill in this situation DPS-wise" in anyway out of "the realm of what this thread addresses", when the thread is specifically about what's the best way to use the discussed skill in discussed situation? What Sebazy said is no doubt the optimal way to do it DPS-wise - and for the whole party, not just the healer - and pointing that out is definitely relevant for the discussion and for the OP. It doesn't mean that this is how the skill should be used in DF groups most of the time, and Sebazy didn't claim that either. No one is debating or derailing here except for you.