Dark Knight and Incoming Live Letter 4.2 on 12/15/17

[aqskerorokero]

just make drk's normal combo potency equal to those of pld and war, then enhance them with dark art for bigger numbers, abusing dark art should result in oh shit situation more often.

[Chrono_Rising]

Hi,

Honestly, I'd like and preferred Drk to be buffed only in the amount of HP for Soul Eater. It would be what separates it from the other Tanks as right now the small amount of HP that Dark Knight regains can't really compare to Warrior's Heals.

When Ultimate Bahamut came out and was downed by the JP server people. All the JPs and us here could not understand why everyone was freaking out over a Drk being in the team com to down it. Over here, Drk is preferred over other Tanks for MT simply due to their higher Magic Resist. I would guess its probably the different mentality of the different regions?

As for DPS-wise, maybe the Dark Knight's DPS can remain the same as compensation for the increased amount of HP they get from Soul Eater. Making them to be more of a sustain tank that can really hold the ground when a healer is down without popping immunity. Anyways, at the rate things are going, Drk will not be receiving any changes for a very very long time.

This isn't really a thread for defending the proposition that dark knight is in a weaker position than the other two tanks, but I'll quickly list a few reasons.

1) Dark Mind is typically quoted as powerful mitigation (and the source of what you call dark knights higher magic resist), but it is a 15% magic defense up, the nature of defensive increases is that it is mitigating less damage than actual mitigation. At max gear this works out to be 16% mitigation right now for magic only damage. Raw Intuition is a 100% parry rate on warrior, mitigates only physical damage, has a higher up time and mitigates 20% of the damage. Bulwark on paladin mitigates all damage, has half the uptime of dark mind and raw intuition, a random element since it increases block rate by 60%, and mitigates 26% of damage blocked, clearly not something to depend on for a buster (RNG) but on fluff damage you can expect about the same mitigation potential as raw intuition since block is higher mitigation and you can potentially block all damage types.

Conclusion, if you want dark mind to mitigate a buster you should pair it with something otherwise you may find yourself falling short. To mitigate an attack with only Dark Mind you might pair it with either dark arts (32% mitigation) or The Blackest Night (which is better depends on how much damage is incoming but it is usually better to pair with the blackest night). Dark Mind can be powerful but usually requires giving up something in addition. However, this isn't a deal breaker.

2) The more serious issue with dark knight is that it is currently the only tank which doesn't bring a method of dealing with raid wide damage, both paladin and warrior do. Pair this with its below average dps and we have a recipe for dark knight falling out of favor.

As more people have cleared savage it is beginning to paint a negative picture for dark knight, which is currently 12% behind warrior damage.

[whiskeybravo]

If we are being honest, the problem with Dark Mind is Paladin.

Dark Mind separated DRK from the other 2 tanks in HW. Paladin had problems, but it wasn't because they couldn't block magic. When they changed magic to be able to be blocked it basically just shat all over DRK's "specialty".

[Aana]

In the example, I was more so referencing a situation where they do, so in this case, you killed 2 or 3 enemies in a group, of all the same type of enemy, and you have 1 remaining enemy, who was the same type.
(only by the example, and yes I wasnt being very clear with where I was taking the example. As a side note, the amount of dmg a target hits you for, doesnt effect the amount in which it heals anyways, so its not a factor for deciding if its worth using really. It's just to paint a picture.)

The fact Abyssal Drain is better on multiple targets (for damage) isnt the argument, but the healing's "cost" is the argument. (obviously it heals more, on more targets, but its cost doesnt get cheaper per target, only what the cost offers, but its offer is offest by the amount of extra number of targets attacking u now, aka they cancel out)
The healing does have 2 requirements.
(1) Abyssal Drain be cast
and
(2) Dark Arts be active.

For arguments sake, lets pretend Abyssal drain isnt a requirement. (You are right, that its an additional cost)

If you could just hit Dark Arts, and then another button to eat the DA, just to land a heal, equal to what you would get from DA/AD, it wouldnt be worth it.
It's an emergency last option.
If youre out of CDs to lower damage, or you're down a healer, then it's worth the MP cost.

The argument is half "The number of targets" and half "is it worth using the MP?"

The number of targets is irrelevant to the MP cost, but as you mentioned, is relevant to abyssal drain, as its a requirement.

Now, the alternative is to use Soul Eater in case you dont have a healer.

If there is 1 target, Soul eater is the better for self sustain.
If there are multiple targets, Abyssal Drain is better than soul eater in self sustain.
But even if its better than soul eater, that doesnt make its MP cost worth it.

So I brought up the example of using on a single target, to explain WHY its not worth it. (But there are exceptions where it is.)

I think this should help explain where I'm coming from with this better.

That is a simple question of is Drk -140 pot (probs in grit potency) better than X healer gcds youd gain. But since its 140 per heal, its really about the time it buys. In other words the ratio of the heal vs damage. You can think of it more like a shield based on your stats (like TBN). If the mob damage is low that HP will buy you a LOT of time. But if the incoming damage is high, it wont. Extreme example. DAAP heals for 100 damage each. Each mob hits you for 10 damage. 10 mobs. 3 sec per hit. 1 DAAP heals you for thirty seconds of damage. Your healer can do a lot with that. More than 140 pot per mob. Other extreme mobs hit for 10k a hit, you heal for 100 damage. Never worth it. Not a drop in the bucket.

Its certainly not 'never' worth it. Its just situational much like the discussion in another recent thread about War using ST combos to build gauge for a big cyclone heal vs just spamming OP. Theres a tipping point and it would depend on your healers ability to leverage your gifted time.

For DAAP there are 2 scenarios its 'always' worth it.

1.You are taking more damage than the healer can keep up with. Think: New healer in a dungeon you overgear. They cant keep you up in a giant pull (or they die etc). DAAP spam will obviously be worth it to stay alive. -140 potency vs a wipe. Not even a choice.
2. Excess resources. I forget how many mobs it takes, but at a certain number of mobs hitting you, you gain MP faster than you can AD it away and you might as well DAAP because its always worth it in that case rather than waste MP. (similar situation for dark passenger. It usually sucks but if you cant spend MP fast enough its that or nothing)

Beyond that its a simple measure of is 140 grit potency greater than X healing gcds (time) you can salvage.

But realistically, if youre in an AOE situation its only a concern if you're going to bottom out on MP and be unable to continue to use AD because you used a DA and actually realize that opportunity cost. as long as your MP regen skill is on you wont be in that situation.

[Dio_Tiferet]

Prepare to be disappointed and press more dark arts.

[Ekimmak]

This isn't really a thread for defending the proposition that dark knight is in a weaker position than the other two tanks, but I'll quickly list a few reasons.

2) The more serious issue with dark knight is that it is currently the only tank which doesn't bring a method of dealing with raid wide damage, both paladin and warrior do.

Well, technically they do, it's just a role ability, not a unique ability, so same result.

Sorry, I'm pedantic at times.

[Claire_Pendragon]

But realistically, if youre in an AOE situation its only a concern if you're going to bottom out on MP and be unable to continue to use AD because you used a DA and actually realize that opportunity cost. as long as your MP regen skill is on you wont be in that situation.

While I disagree with how you came to the same conclusion, I agree with that conclusion.
(Soley the part about how much dmg you intake affecting your choice to heal or not. As you'll heal the same amount regardless of incoming dmg. Incoming damage only matters if your heal is greater than how much you're missing.)

But for clarifications sake (and probably beating a dead horse) using healing to make up for lack of a healers healing (because they arent there, or are struggling, and need help) is still a "reasonable" sacrifice.
Obviously its better to still be alive than dead.

The main reason DA+AD is the go to heal for AoE, is literally due to the opposing option, ends up healing for less, but does do more dps. (Soul eater vs dark arts with 0 potency increase)
So you either pick defense or offense, and thats your choice.
Obviously for defensive options, DA+AD is always helpful, since its one of the best heals/"mitigation" on the GCD. (The rest being off the GCD or worse than DA+AD defensively)

But yeah, in a calculation of X number of enemies, each doing Y dps, while you always heal Z amount times X number of enemies, still means that the effectiveness of a 0 potency MP cost, pretty much is equally not worth it "offensively" in either AoE or single target. It's not comparable to choosing between 50 potency AoE vs 100 potency single target.

but i guess none of that matters if we pretty much agree to using it at the same times. (To stay alive)

[Chrono_Rising]

Well, technically they do, it's just a role ability, not a unique ability, so same result.

Sorry, I'm pedantic at times.

In general I try not to get bogged down in comparing universal abilities between all the tanks, details are important, but equally important is the focus of information. When comparing what classes bring to the table in a raid it is unnecessary and distracting to compare exactly the same thing on all classes to each other. I also left tank LB out of the equation, because all tanks have it, and it is usually only used if the raid will wipe without it.

Example: Paladin is the only tank that can take the damage for another tank for a short duration by using cover. This isn't true, but discussion provoking pre-tank buster and shirking back to the intended tank once the damage is dealt is a universal of the class that is expected given raid mechanics. Laboring this common and universal mechanic only serves to distract from the issue one is trying to highlight.

Something about forests and trees.

[Claire_Pendragon]

In general I try not to get bogged down in comparing universal abilities between all the tanks, details are important, but equally important is the focus of information. When comparing what classes bring to the table in a raid it is unnecessary and distracting to compare exactly the same thing on all classes to each other. I also left tank LB out of the equation, because all tanks have it, and it is usually only used if the raid will wipe without it.

Example: Paladin is the only tank that can take the damage for another tank for a short duration by using cover. This isn't true, but discussion provoking pre-tank buster and shirking back to the intended tank once the damage is dealt is a universal of the class that is expected given raid mechanics. Laboring this common and universal mechanic only serves to distract from the issue one is trying to highlight.

Something about forests and trees.

The argument is technically "frequency of being able to do so".
Back in HW, you could only provoek so many times, so swapping, and then back again, too soon, can lead to problems/wipes.

Cover allowed you to essentially "provoke/shirk" an additional time, while they are on CD.
So PLD has an extra one. Though you can say we have ultimatum, and shirk on top of voke, which now makes it unnecessarily to use cover, but of course cover doesnt take up a role slot, which non PLDs cant afford to lose, while PLD is able to give up some role slots... which is where id argue the imbalance is. (and one I wouldnt care about, if some of the other tanks had features unique to them equally)

In the same argument, DRK has raid utility from reprisal, and therefor there's no reason to argue for DRK having raid utility.

So on, and so forth.

The issue is that reprisal is on CD equally with all 3 tanks, and 2 of them, can still help with raid wide dmg, while DRK cant. (Otherwise SE wouldnt have given WAR the new shake it off, since they could equip reprisal)

[Chrono_Rising]

The argument is technically "frequency of being able to do so".
Back in HW, you could only provoek so many times, so swapping, and then back again, too soon, can lead to problems/wipes.

Cover allowed you to essentially "provoke/shirk" an additional time, while they are on CD.
So PLD has an extra one. Though you can say we have ultimatum, and shirk on top of voke, which now makes it unnecessarily to use cover, but of course cover doesnt take up a role slot, which non PLDs cant afford to lose, while PLD is able to give up some role slots... which is where id argue the imbalance is. (and one I wouldnt care about, if some of the other tanks had features unique to them equally)

In the same argument, DRK has raid utility from reprisal, and therefor there's no reason to argue for DRK having raid utility.

So on, and so forth.

The issue is that reprisal is on CD equally with all 3 tanks, and 2 of them, can still help with raid wide dmg, while DRK cant. (Otherwise SE wouldnt have given WAR the new shake it off, since they could equip reprisal)

Yup, this is exactly what I'm saying about extra details. The whole of my point is those two utilities existence one 2 tanks and not a second outside the cross role system create an imbalance favorign two tanks while having one tank that has no upside.

This is also ignoring that shields have uses outside of when the boss can be targeted. So one could argue that the shielding utility is superior to reprisal and offers a wider range of applications.