On the motive of Ascians

[Cilia]

The battles I speak of are those where the target is in no way associated with Ascians, Primals/Eikons or some other dangerous power. I do not think the story should ignore just how dubious it is to have someone like the Warrior of Light act as the judge, jury and executioner when it comes to disputes between mortals. It doesn't sit well with me that the Warrior of Light will kill people for relatively minor issues such as theft, never knowing the full details in regards to why someone may have gone down that path. Yet at the same time Arenvald openly admits to theft in the past, explains his reasoning and gets a pass. I think the protagonists are often incredibly self righteous and hypocritical, in other words - often acting on impulses rather than being objective.

I do not recall a point at which the Warrior of Light murdered someone for petty theft. Furthermore, the authorities are often called in to deal with criminals - unless those authorities are corrupt, in which case being good requires circumventing them and doing what is right anyway.

As a mortal, the Warrior of Light interfering in mortal affairs is inevitable. Just when they have the Blessing of Light actively influencing the outcome of their battles is up for dispute - as is whether or not it is necessary to accomplish grand things, as Nabriales was overcome without it.

What you seem to be suggesting is that the Warrior of Light should not use their strength, divinely gifted or otherwise, to influence the world around them in any way, shape, or form. That they should do nothing, be nobody, or otherwise be a by-the-book cop. Doing nothing will lead to greater tragedies, and sometimes being good requires bending or breaking the rules - something reasonable authority figures understand. It's not black and white.

[Theodric]

I recall there being a number of examples in side quests - there's at least one in Yanxia, for instance, involving some bandits stealing some herbs. Theft shouldn't go unpunished though it seems pretty extreme to outright kill them for it - hence the comment about the Warrior of Light acting as the 'judge, jury and executioner'. It's particularly jarring when someone like Fordola ends up being redeemed as her crimes were far, far worse - she wasn't without her reasons, but equally the bandits in question are likely not without their own reasons either. In fact, it's pretty much implied that they turned to banditry as a consequence of Yanxia falling into ruin.

Arenvald actively admits to turning to banditry in order to survive during darker days. He's a good person, he was simply misguided - but how many 'Arenvalds' have been slaughtered by the Warrior of Light, never able to fulfill their potential, redeem themselves or avenge their friends and family? That's the sort of moral predicament I would love to see explored in the future.

I'm not saying that the Warrior of Light should not get involved, merely that there needs to be realistic consequences and nuances. At his core, the Warrior of Light is an adventurer - but that itself is just a fancy, pleasant name for 'mercenary'. I just want the story to tell it how it is and cast light on how for all the good deeds that Warrior of Light may have done he's still someone who will kill people for coin without ever knowing the full circumstances involved. It's also a great opportunity to show how flawed the justice system in various regions of Hydaelyn can be.

[Estherna]

If I recall well, the thieves in Yanxia, Wolf people, pretty much attacked us first. We went there to take back the herbs from them, and they tried to kill us. It's pretty much how it happens every time, and also what make me chuckle every time : "Let's attack the Warrior of Light guys, it's not like he is killing god-like entity every other day right?". So we don't really deliver justice, we defend ourselves against people who attacks us.

Quickly regarding Fordola, I think that her character is interesting for a lot of reasons, but they ruined it with the cannon shot she ordered willingly. She wasn't even under a direct threat at the moment, she did it to please Zenos and to show how strong she was. I could understand her motives before, when she said she wanted to proove that Ala Mighans could be citizens of the Empire, but killing her comrades like that? It just look like plain egoistic motives and that the only person she cares about is herself. I think I see what they tried to do, and it is interesting, but that doesn't deliver well in my opinion.

For our intervention in human conflicts, I don't think there is any which is really. For all we know, the Garlean Empire could have been kickstarted by Ascians given them the way to exploit Cerulean minerals for their magitek machines. Same thing for the Dragonsong War : why would Humans suddenly decides to eat the eyes of a Dragon? It isn't like the first thing that came to your mind right? In my opinion, we are more reacting to what others do that anything else (the war in Ala Migho for example is linked with what Ilberd did, which was supported by Ascians, and so on). We are not changing issues. We are counter-balancing the actions of the Ascians by preventing Chaos and Turmoils.

[Theodric]

They attack the Warrior of Light, sure - but my point is that the Warrior of Light should not be acting as the judge, jury and execution to begin with...and if he is going to fulfill that role then the nuances need to be explored. It just makes for a more interesting story than pretending as if the protagonists are perfectly justified at every turn. Many people are flawed and make mistakes in their lives - they do not necessarily deserve to die for those mistakes, especially without ever being given the opportunity to explain themselves.

I'd point to Attack on Titan for an example as to what I mean. I won't spoil the specifics, but there's a lot of effort put into exploring both sides of a bitter conflict. You get to see why specific characters act the way that they do. You see their struggles, some of the protagonists are effectively antagonists at times, whereas some of the antagonists are essentially protagonists. It goes to great lengths to explore different points of view without resorting to the awful trope of 'we're the good guys, so everything we do is righteous'. It shows that the protagonists can do horrific things, that they can make mistakes and that their judgement isn't always the best. So I'd love to see more of that in FFXIV.

After all, if this is truly going to be a story about 'balance' between Light and Dark then that it would all fit rather nicely. To the writer's credit, the Fordola situation may be a step in that direction...but I'm tempering my expectations as I'm not entirely convinced that Fordola and Yotsuyu aren't simply being redeemed and kept around due to their character designs. So far, any effort to redeem a male antagonist after exploring their point of view has led to their deaths.

I just want more fallout and negativity surrounding the Warrior of Light's actions in a way that doesn't just paint those who have a problem with him as bad guys. Imagine how interesting it would be if someone tries to seek vengeance on the Warrior of Light for cutting down a lover or sibling? They could very well fail, though it would highlight just how easily the Warrior of Light destroys people's lives. He'd still be praised as a hero elsewhere, naturally - his feats are just too grand to ignore - but even superheroes such as Spiderman and Batman have had to deal with such grim moral issues.

[Estherna]

I just want more fallout and negativity surrounding the Warrior of Light's actions in a way that doesn't just paint those who have a problem with him as bad guys. Imagine how interesting it would be if someone tries to seek vengeance on the Warrior of Light for cutting down a lover or sibling? They could very well fail, though it would highlight just how easily the Warrior of Light destroys people's lives. He'd still be praised as a hero elsewhere, naturally - his feats are just too grand to ignore - but even superheroes such as Spiderman and Batman have had to deal with such grim moral issues.

Isn't it the point of the Dark Knight Job Quests from 60 to 70 ?

[Theodric]

Isn't it the point of the Dark Knight Job Quests from 60 to 70 ?

To an extent - but the characters in question have been dead for a while now. Lucia felt no hostility towards the Warrior of Light despite him being responsible for Livia's demise. Which begs the question as to why Lucia was even created as it doesn't feel realistic for someone to be fine with a troubled family member being killed off. Though I could rant at length about 'defector' characters typically being pretty awful in general so I'll spare people that...for now.

In short, I just want there to be lasting consequences for the Warrior of Light that specifically highlight that his judgement isn't always the best rather than just brushing it off as a 'necessity'. I want to see people who have their lives ruined as a consequence of the Warrior of Light's actions. I want to see them spiral into further ruin, through no fault of their own - perhaps they try to speak up, only to be harassed for daring to paint the Warrior of Light as a hero. Perhaps the Warrior of Light feels guilty about it, perhaps he doesn't...the specifics can be left open to the player's own interpretation. Ultimately, though, that sort of angle from time to time would be realistic and help counter the excessive hero worship going on.

Plus I'm sure it'll fuel a considerable number of interesting debates such as this one! Things have been pretty quiet around here lately so it's great to see a thread like this get a lot of attention.

[Alleo]

The battles I speak of are those where the target is in no way associated with Ascians, Primals/Eikons or some other dangerous power. I do not think the story should ignore just how dubious it is to have someone like the Warrior of Light act as the judge, jury and executioner when it comes to disputes between mortals. It doesn't sit well with me that the Warrior of Light will kill people for relatively minor issues such as theft, never knowing the full details in regards to why someone may have gone down that path. Yet at the same time Arenvald openly admits to theft in the past, explains his reasoning and gets a pass. I think the protagonists are often incredibly self righteous and hypocritical, in other words - often acting on impulses rather than being objective.

Ultimately it is my desire that life in Hydaelyn will someday revolve entirely around mortals - with no Hydaelyn, no Zodiark, no Ascians, no Primals/Eikons and no Warrior of Light/Warrior of Darkness. Only then would mortals truly be free to do as they please...and civilisations could crumble and advance as dictated by mortals rather than outside influences. Granted, it may very well be a lofty dream...so we'll have to see how things go!

Lets not forget that next to being the weapon of light we are also adventurers. I would dare to say that derplander would join these fights regardless of any divine motive or not. I mean the battle of Cartenau was fought alongside Adventurers so why should we as a person stay out of any conflict? Also the problem with this kind of staying out and at the same time this kind of story telling would mean that we only get one godly fight after another. I am quite sure that a lot of people would wish for more mortal problems if we would only care about the divine stuff. And again the WoL is still human and its not that strange that they would care for the wellbeing of a whole continent thus getting involved in such battles. I do agree that we normally should focus more on the Ascians since they are an dimensional threat but at the same time in this story they are kinda behind nearly every big conflict so putting that conflict down is putting their plans down too.

For future expansion I do hope that they dont make another war again, at least not for 5.0. Because even if the character (derplander) would go there again it would just probably feel annoying for some of us players to go through another (I would be one of them.)

And yes we might be self righteous and hypocritical at some times but the WoL is still human. And its kinda in our nature to make mistakes. And before my WoL will be killed I rather take down that enemy. (Because we never truly killed without being attacked first)

--

And I agree its nice to have a thread in the lore forum active again but I do hope its stays reasonable and without attacks.

Also couldnt it just simply be that she just hated her sister that much that she did not care that she was death? First she is a soldier herself so she knows really well that those need to kill in battle. Her sister and Gaius attacked the scions and threatened Eorzea so the WoL only reacted to that threat and charged into their territory. There they fought through it to stop Ultima. If she had surrendered herself we probably would not have killed her but in the end this was just another her or me battle. On top of that she is a very cruel person. They got the order to capture Minfilia (and us) and yet she on top of that murdered everyone in the base. Heck she even killed our dear Sylph friend. I am quite sure that this was not her very first act of cruelness and as far as I can remember she did have some kind of bad name associated with her. So it simply could be that Lucia knew that she cant be saved, that we did not kill her for no reason at all (and would have died instead). Also her telling us that she has no bad feelings because of that might not be 100% true. Maybe she was full of hate when she got the message and overcame that, maybe she still felt sad but knew that something like that could happen..heck if they would stand before each other she would have had to kill her sister too so maybe she is even thankful that we did that for her. Just because you are related by blood does not necessarily mean that you will always love and care for that person. So no I dont see her reaction as strange at all. (And it fits the theme of Forgiveness instead of revenge that we had in HW)

About the bandits: If we go there to get something back that they have stolen and they attack us with the intent to kill us, why should we spare them? They could have given us a reason and let us live but just showing that they are willing to kill us over some herbs says quite a lot about them. I mean its not like we are the thief and they are innocent. Who knows if the next action would not have let to someones death? In the end they show the same animation as someone that is just knocked out so who knows if we truly kill them or not. One could easily say that we knocked them out. (Dont remember if its mentioned that they died)

And about the fallout: Well the WoL needs to do horrible things first before they can suffer a reasonable fallout. We save the world, take down primals and do other stuff that is good. We defend ourselves which seems to be acceptable in this world. And we do lots of other good things next to the main story. Really the only negative thing that I can think about is their curiosity that awakened several ancient monsters (void ark) but at the same time we take care of them too and we are not the only one going after this so if we did not find it someone else would and they would have not been able to take care of it. So in the end I just see no reason why we would even need negativity or a fallout since we most of the time dont do bad things and some of the more questionable stuff like the relic is seen as nothing big in the world anyway (which I find really confusing x)).

[ObsidianFire]

I feel that SE can't really show the consequences for the WoL in an extreme way because that would put to many RP constraints on players. This FF is specifically about our FF character (whoever we want them to be) and not a character defined by SE. To put a moral judgement on the PC in-game would go against that. That said, there's lot of space in the narrative to RP consequences for the WoL. Figuring out what the characters are doing when they aren't involved in cut-scenes is part of the fun of the medium for some people.

[Cilia]

...I just want there to be lasting consequences for the Warrior of Light that specifically highlight that his judgement isn't always the best rather than just brushing it off as a 'necessity'.

Failure to apprehend or kill Ilberd during Heavensward or The Far Edge of Fate makes the Warrior of Light indirectly responsible for the war that took place and everyone who died during Stormblood. Zenos even needles them over it; whether or not it was intentional is up for interpretation, but he is correct in stating that the Warrior of Light bears (indirect) responsibility for what happened. Is this insufficient?

Various characters (the True Brothers of the Faith, Lowdy, Fordola, etc.) show that not everyone likes or agrees with everything they do, but again - what else do you propose? That they do nothing because some people aren't going to agree with it? That the devs devote resources to exploring the impact on the families of lupin bandits we kill in self-defense for investigating their theft of herbs (or whatever)?

EDIT
The quest in question, Wolves and Weeds, has the Warrior of Light asking for some mugwort that was stolen from a child back from a bandit. The bandit states that since the mugwort came from his (likely unlawful) territory, it belongs to him, then attacks the Warrior of Light. All they wanted was the mugwort back, not to kill the bandit. You are blaming the victim for killing in self-defense. Next?

...the narrative isn't going to vilify the protagonist(s) like you seem to want. The Warrior of Light and the Scions in general are genuine heroes, asking what they can do for others and not asking what others can do for them (or at least playing quid pro quo). They mean well, even if they don't always end up doing well.

Plus I'm sure it'll fuel a considerable number of interesting debates such as this one! Things have been pretty quiet around here lately so it's great to see a thread like this get a lot of attention.

Mah boi, this peace is what all true warriors strive for!