On the motive of Ascians

[ObsidianFire]

I kinda don't think so. Elidibus' plan for the WoD depended on the WoD thinking that Hydaelyn is like Zodiark in that she doesn't care about the life on the Shard. Only it turns out that she does; Hydaelyn's response to finding out about the flood of Light is to go fix the problem so their world can go on living. This also means that the Ascians can still use the 1st Shard to bring about a Rejoining so Zodiark can gain more power. If Hydaelyn had let the 1st Shard get flooded with Light then that would be one less Shard the Ascians could use, which you'd think would be a good thing. The most I can bring against Hydaelyn with the whole WoD incident is that she had to be told about what was happening on the 1st Shard in the first place. On the other hand, it's been implied in interviews and other places that Hydaelyn created the Shards in the first place because she was weaker then Zodiark at the time... I can easily see her being weak enough to not have the same kind of relationship she has with the Source then with all the other Shards.

It's probably worth mentioning that flooding a Shard with light/darkness is never attributed to Hydaelyn or Zodiark. The WoD link their Shard being flooded with Light with them wining against the darkness too much. Likewise, Unukalhai links the flood of Darkness on his Shard with the overuse of Auracite (whatever that is). So it looks like flooding has more to do with what the people living on the Shard do. The flip side of this is that it looks like Hydaelyn anyway can help prevent a flood when a Shard is on the brink. Whether that is something Zodiark can do, is prevented from doing, or refuses to do is anyone's guess.

[Estherna]

Well first off, thank you all for your answers, especially Anonymoose for these detailled ideas. Indeed, part of my theory was coming from trusting Elidibus words, and he has been prooved to be an expert manipulator. I hope that we will find at some point why he has a white dress, it may explain a lot...

Regarding Hydaelin and her apparent lack of clarity and understanding, I think we also have to take into consideration that she isn't an human being, but something else all together. She mays very well, like Dragons, function on a totally different plane than ours and have a very different perception of time and events. And she is getting weaker and weaker as not only primals are invoked from here and there, but also because she gave us some of her powers through the Light crystals (If I recall well, when we went to see Matoya to ask her to borrow her crystal, it was said that it is a part of Hydaelyn power that she gives to her champions - Even if it was like a little bit awkward for me as it was like the perfect artifact to get rid of Ascians but whatever -). So it is totally possible that she just doesn't communicate very well with mortals because she doesn't realize that there is a lot of things that we don't understand.

Also, I was wondering if this had been answered : is it possible that both Hydaelin and Zodiark are creations of mankind? Both being embodiement of the bright side and dark side of our psyches, and that we existed way before them but forgot?

That something I wondered after finishing the Azim Steppes, where one of the clans had this story about Father Sun and Mother Moon (Even if we know its the other way around), and when they explain that the Au Ra where the children of both (or something on these lines). I mean, it is possible that it is a totally separated belief not linked to anything true, but in a world where what happens to souls after death is known and where Gods or something similar had been prooved to exist, it's kinda hard to not consider that legends hold truth.

So maybe Hydaelin didn't created us. Maybe mankind was created by both, which would conveniently explain why there is light and dark in every human on the world. Or maybe mankind simply existed before and created these gods from its beliefs, and is now trapped in this War between two opposites principles it created itself? Maybe that is the truth that Elidibus told us about, and that would fit your theory Anonymoose of him wanting to cast them out and being a God himself, but as a human who ascended there.

Also, side question, probably untrue: Is there any clues that would indicate that the 14 other shards are in fact the several Final Fantasy games of the series or deny it?

[Anonymoose]

With regard to Hydaelyn's trustworthiness...

Need it be so - pun intended - black and white? I find some irony of questioning Her "goodness" via accusations that She's thus actually the bad one or selfishly amoral. To me, She seems both well-intentioned and incredibly fallible. From the banishment of Zodiark all the way to the fate of the First, She maintains strict laissez-faire until the Ascians step on Her toe and She starts swinging wildly. There's always collateral damage. There's always unintended consequences. For a world soul, Her foresight seems to be just awful, but She also seems to feel pretty bad about it.

But She also explained this when Urianger played his hand: She's just as helpless to stop a Flood of Light as Zodiark was to stop the Flood of Darkness on the Thirteenth. She might be able to occasionally lend Her power through a shard of Herself given to one of Her chosen, but other than that, She can't enforce Her will any better than Zodiark can but through their agents. She gave the Warriors of Darkness the power to drive out Mitron, but was unable to stop them from taking their crusade too far. Hydaelyn begs their forgiveness and claims She heard their prayers but was helpless to act.

If we assume the timelines are running concurrently, is it not fair to infer that the Warriors of Darkness were victims of assumption at the same time Ysayle was? That when Hydaelyn interfered to raise Her champion (a tier of chosen not seen for thousands of years, according to Lahabrea) and affected the corporeal world to the degree of shielding Ultima (at least twice), She spent so much of Her power so fast that She couldn't speak, and that they confused Her silence for assent that their decisions were righteous, crusading past stopping the Calamity and driving out Mitron, and continuing on until they'd accidentally destroyed every meaningful counterbalancing energy in their world?

Hydaelyn being [A] Light, [B] the creator of mortal life as we know it, and [C] benevolent towards Her children all seems incidental, to me. That She didn't make us because She's benevolent, that She's not benevolent because She's good, and that She's not good because She's Light, but that it just happened to work out in favor of classic Final Fantasy themes "because Dev. Team".

But the fact She's so hands-off unless the Dark is bringing chaos to Her children and attacking Her through them is part of why I trust Her for the time being. All presently known information suggests that if we force Zodiark into silence, Hydaelyn will choose silence. We can live out our existence in the static between them. Again, "the reins of history in the hands of man".

Again, though, I'm pretty biased against the Ascians, lol. #TeamHydaelyn #ElidibusIsASnake (#GaiusLives)

As for her vagueness...

I have a running joke with some friends that She's actually quite articulate but that, like with the Sylphs, things get lost in translation because Crystal and English have little in common, structurally. She says "I can't interfere with the corporeal world, so I've jailbroken the walls of your soul, my chosen. The Ascians have pawns everywhere, but now you can hear one's true intentions and feel their true histories for yourself. I trust that if you think on these truths, you will find our enemies and a way to save us." and all that comes through is "[whoosh] MY WARRIOR OF LIGHT. MY BELOVED SON. CAST OUT THE DARKNESS. HEAR. FEEL. THINK. [whoosh]"

Is it possible that both Hydaelin and Zodiark are creations of mankind? Both being embodiement of the bright side and dark side of our psyches, and that we existed way before them but forgot?

Nothing is impossible, though it requires some of the timeline as we know it to be revealed as a lie. Hells, in Final Fantasy XI, Altana shattered the great crystal into pieces to create the five races so that they could act as vessels for the energies associated with Promathia. There was a lot of speculation that something similar was happening here, but would "Final Fantasy Online 2" rehash so much of the plot of "Final Fantasy Online 1"? Time will tell! The races indeed have Darkness within going by Ramuh's words, though we don't know the origin. Perhaps its inherent through the presence of Light, perhaps it's something more concrete.

Also, side question, probably untrue: Is there any clues that would indicate that the 14 other shards are in fact the several Final Fantasy games of the series or deny it?

This one is been nuked from orbit by Yoshida himself. Dissida is canon, to Dissidia. Mobius Final Fantasy is canon, to Mobius Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy XIV's world is (for the time being) completely isolated, full of references but not direct connections to any other games. (Barring, of course, pseudocanon funtime events where Shantotto, Lightning, and the CEO of Yokai Watch are able to arrive on our plane of existence through the fault of something from their own world.)

[Theodric]

Eh, personally I just can't trust religious figures when it comes to JRPG's. Be it deities themselves or their followers it seems like more often than not there's some sort of catch involved or they're utterly depraved, sinister, evil or misguided. It may turn out to be different in FFXIV but so far there isn't much evidence to suggest that Hydaelyn's motives are as pure and innocent as she implies. We've already seen her playing favourites, we've seen her take Minfilia as a host under dubious circumstances and there's still other mysteries such as what, exactly, the deal she made with Midgardsormr involves.

[Alleo]

Honestly I am going to be #TeamHydaelyn to the very (maybe bitter) end. Elidibus is all about: If you know the truth you would follow us but he never tells us everything. Why? He knows that we are the wall between him and his plans so why does he not tell us the truth thus getting us to our side?

We know through the story that Hydaelyn is losing the war. She is so weak that she can only have like one last great WoL on her side on the original world. We are her last hope thus she protected us from certain death. So I can understand that she would go and get Minfilia as her voice if it means that we/she might stand a chance at all. We also do know that going back to how it was before the banishment means no human live as we know it. Maybe those with the echo would survive? But in the end this alone would be enough to stand against the Ascians.

Hydaelyn just feels much more trustworthy. She never forced our hand, just told us to think, feel, hear which is kinda like giving us a free will and she only really intervenes when it would be truly over for us. (Or Kryle) Her not being able to speak to us after shielding us from Ultima, all the stuff after that and after we lost our blessing thanks to dragon dad kinda makes sense. I mean she was so weak that she had to use the spell from Ysthola to take Minfilia to her realm. It might feel bad that she did that to her but at the same time I am kinda like Urianger in that way. One life for the lives of a whole world. If she had not taken her we would have not been able to communicate with her and she would have had nobody to sent to the first world. I feel that this is a small sacrifice in the end.

On top of that Minfilia was able to feel and see everything from her when she merged and yet continue to stay on her side. There was still enough of the old Minfilia in there when we talked to her so I just cant believe that she does not have some part of her own free will left.

Seeing SEs way of dealing with Gods in their FF worlds I really hope that they will do it different this time..Thordans nature for example really did not surprise me since it seems to be a thing in the FF universe. So I really hope that this wont end in the "lets destroy both of them" way...because I for once just want her to survive. (I am fine if we find out that she might not have been completely innocent about the splitting at the beginning but that would still not make her evil imo)

[Moned]

1.0/2.0 HEAR. As the WoL, We can hear Hydaelyn to a point.
3.0 FEEL. Well Just saying the feels on Heavensward...
4.0 THINK. We can pick what we want to say!?! Somewhat.
The Ascians to witch "one" is the most knowledgeable of Zodiark or maybe with the weakening of Hydaelyn. They themselves can now hear him a bit. They got a feel of what the WoL can do, maybe they still using us to a point. Building the WoL up to big, so they can knock them down. Just to case a great rift to 100% awaken Zodiark! In a world gone wrong they win. As seen with the Void and WoD. However try as they might the WoL wins the day... I dream of a day where the WoL fails yet again this time costing more then a heavy price. I don't see the Ascians as bad just they are much like the WoL just they care more about Zodiark. As where the WoL, last time I checked they don't really care if they can hear Hydaelyn.

[Theodric]

I'm a huge fan of protagonists having dire consequences associated with the power that they wield. In almost every case, if an antagonist has access to a great power there will be some way to exploit it for the sake of victory. It would be very pleasant if that happened to the Warrior of Light. In regards to the whole 'balance' angle, I suspect that if the Warrior of Light grows too powerful then it will prove to be just as dangerous as Zodiark's servants being allowed to grow unfettered. Another angle to consider is that the Warrior of Light is not simply dealing with divine threats but abusing their power to turn the tide in conflicts that are purely centered around mortals. I hope this is highlighted as a negative in the future rather than something to aspire towards. Conflict is part of what makes us human, after all. It isn't necessarily something to aspire to for the sake of it, though our history would be very different if there had not been many of the key battles throughout both recent and distant civilisation.

[Alleo]

We have to grow really really powerful to tip the scale. (And yes the first world shows that too powerful WoLs are bad too) She is losing so the balance is already pointing towards the dark side. Without Minfilia she was not able to speak to her chosen ones and she could only sent her to the other world when Urianger offered her the crystals of light from the WoD and our own. Her going to the other world and taking in their light might have given her a bit of a boast but she is still on the losing side. We cant simply stop. If we dont do anything they will just do another calamity. We also cant say that the WoL is misusing their power for mortal fights. Did you forget that the Ascians where behind the Dragon war too? Right now if we have a major human conflict you can place a bet that Ascians will have something to do with that. If we simply ignore it than we will just play into their hand. All we can do is try to change the outcome. Also there is no hint that our combat abilities are something divine. The only thing that helps us is our blessing and the echo but even without the blessing we still were strong enough to kill quite some enemies. So the WoL is fighting these wars with their own power. (I am not that happy that we as the WoL always have to solve the problems for the city states and that after one war we had to fight in another, but with great power comes great responsibility )

You say you hope that we will be punished for this because somehow trying to solve problems is wrong. How would you do this then? I am just curious because sitting back and watching others fighting it out would surely not be a good way? And the WoL does not have that much (political) power to just make everyone stop fighting.

[Anonymoose]

In regards to the whole 'balance' angle, I suspect that if the Warrior of Light grows too powerful then it will prove to be just as dangerous as Zodiark's servants being allowed to grow unfettered.

It's a sound hypothetical, I agree. Though something will eventually need to undermine the Warrior of Light's hithertofore free will and relatively sound judgement. Much like the [your character is a foreigner] aspect of the story, I realize that there are people who like to undermine the Warrior of Light's agency and play as someone who reluctantly, begrudgingly performs the role, but on the whole the game seems to take it as a given that [a] you've accepted this as a burden you don't always enjoy but can't neglect, and [b] Hydaelyn tasked you to fight for Eorzea and you'll let the will of the Light be damned as hard as the will of the Dark if it threatens that greater purpose.

It also feels more likely that the Warrior of Light will use their power towards unexpected ends, but unwittingly, and through the manipulations of the Ascians at that. Hydaelyn's poor communication skills are easy fodder for deception, and Elidibus has already stated twice (post-Ramuh to the black-robed council, and through his orders to the Warriors of Darkness) that he plans on using the Warrior of Light as the "final key" to Zodiark's resurrection.

Another angle to consider is that the Warrior of Light is not simply dealing with divine threats but abusing their power to turn the tide in conflicts that are purely centered around mortals.

What battles are you thinking of in this regard? We've fought against many mortal forces in general, but when have we called upon power that transcends mortal limits to fight against something other than the causes of greater strife rooted in Ascian manipulation? Primals, the Ultima Weapon, King Thordan, Shinryu, and Zenos's powers were all Ascians at the roots. Even Nidhogg we fought Nidhogg with dragon eyes rather than the Echo or blessing of Light both times. I feel like the game must have a reason behind continually reminding you, "You aren't strong because you were chosen, you were chosen because you are strong."

I'm struggling to think of examples where the Warrior of Light is "abusing Hydaelyn's power to affect the outcomes of mortal battles" rather than "utilizing their own power to prevent outcomes they cannot accept".

She is losing so the balance is already pointing towards the dark side.

I think it's fascinating that something this simple is still on the table for debate - that reaaally we don't really have a good grasp on where the Source sits upon the continuum right now. Hydaelyn, Ramuh, and Midgardsormr were adamant that the Dark's influence is growing too strong and must be cast out. Hydaelyn has been hit with seven calamities and can barely speak, only gaining the power to raise an emissary after several Crystals of Light were sacrificed back to Her (though Her champion, the Warrior of Light, is able to somehow interfere with the aetherial realm and manifest / reignite them in times of need and strength). And yet some still doubt that...

Hydaelyn
A Light there once was that shone throughout this realm...yet it hath since grown dim.
And as it hath faltered, so hath Darkness risen up in its stead, presaging an end to Life.

Meanwhile, Elidibus told the Warrior of Darkness that their "mission is in jeopardy" because the "Warrior of Light is too powerful" and that a loss of balance would be catastrophic. Or is that another laying out of disconnected truths presented as a whole to inspire a specific, deceptive interpretation? Elidibus led the Warrior of Darkness to believe that the only possible fates of the First were rejoining or Flood, are we to believe him telling the same man that the Source's only fates are Flood or the destruction of the Warrior of Light?

I'm still waiting for the day Elidubus's true intentions are revealed. Perhaps after that we'll see that Hydaelyn, too, isn't willing to back down from "shine the Light on all creation" even after the invasion of the Darkness has been thwarted. Still, She's shut up in times of peace before, I don't see why She wouldn't again, and the Warrior of Light doesn't seem keen on obeying great crystals against the interests of Eorzea itself.

[Theodric]

The battles I speak of are those where the target is in no way associated with Ascians, Primals/Eikons or some other dangerous power. I do not think the story should ignore just how dubious it is to have someone like the Warrior of Light act as the judge, jury and executioner when it comes to disputes between mortals. It doesn't sit well with me that the Warrior of Light will kill people for relatively minor issues such as theft, never knowing the full details in regards to why someone may have gone down that path. Yet at the same time Arenvald openly admits to theft in the past, explains his reasoning and gets a pass. I think the protagonists are often incredibly self righteous and hypocritical, in other words - often acting on impulses rather than being objective.

Ultimately it is my desire that life in Hydaelyn will someday revolve entirely around mortals - with no Hydaelyn, no Zodiark, no Ascians, no Primals/Eikons and no Warrior of Light/Warrior of Darkness. Only then would mortals truly be free to do as they please...and civilisations could crumble and advance as dictated by mortals rather than outside influences. Granted, it may very well be a lofty dream...so we'll have to see how things go!