My "ah-ha!" moment of FFXIV

[Answa]

Sorry, that's my fault. I was using Skyrim to exemplify a point and rather than clarify, it confused.

To summarize what I was trying to articulate: levelling should be a by-product, rather than the goal, of a game.

My point meant to show that Skyrim accomplishes that (IMO), but FFXIV falls short, and therefore doesn't meet my own definition of "fun".

The point is that when you mix together different players with different levels, you can't just adjust content to that party. It's unworkable. There's a ton of quests between Lv. 1-50 that give you EXP, as well as guildeves, etc. Grinding is just faster, and not really a bad thing. I see so many people talking about FFXIV being a grind fest. But really, what MMO isn't?

[Vyncent]

The point is that when you mix together different players with different levels, you can't just adjust content to that party. It's unworkable. There's a ton of quests between Lv. 1-50 that give you EXP, as well as guildeves, etc. Grinding is just faster, and not really a bad thing. I see so many people talking about FFXIV being a grind fest. But really, what MMO isn't?

Despite knowingly heading down a rabbit hole with this question, I must counter with: what says they should be?

I believe the genre has boxed itself in with its thinking that grinding = playtime = revenue. I further believe that the model has become tired, and there is an excellent opportunity now to move away from it; maybe not with FFXIV, but with the next-big-title. I see "achievement" systems being used more and more as a means of measurement, and will likely one day be used for character progression instead of the levelling tread-mill, which itself hinders and prohibits new sales unless significant investments are made to hardware/infrastructure to support "brand-new" or "from-scratch" servers.

Revisiting the drawing board with a focus on achievement-based progression is the bright future of gaming.

[Cichy]

If the achievement system comes with proper and unique rewards it has bright future. Bottom line is people want loot to show off.

[Meow_Zedong]

Achievement system will have real rewards, such as the Crown item that they showed off during the live letter. I can't wait.

[Bahn]

I believe the genre has boxed itself in with its thinking that grinding = playtime = revenue. I further believe that the model has become tired, and there is an excellent opportunity now to move away from it; maybe not with FFXIV, but with the next-big-title. I see "achievement" systems being used more and more as a means of measurement, and will likely one day be used for character progression instead of the levelling tread-mill, which itself hinders and prohibits new sales unless significant investments are made to hardware/infrastructure to support "brand-new" or "from-scratch" servers.

Revisiting the drawing board with a focus on achievement-based progression is the bright future of gaming.

That's the problem I have with the MMO genre at the moment. There are certain tropes to the genre that just make an MMO not much different from one another. 2.0 will definitely be good, but I doubt it will bring anything revolutionary for the genre to the table. It still sticks to an old and dated holy trinity formula, it will be using jobs that are throwback to XI, it will only be "catching up" with the MMOs of today.

I do agree more MMOs should focus on the online adventure aspect - something more interactive that gets your blood boiling or makes you want to care more about what's going on with your characters. Endgame players have the Ifrit fight and Dzmael down pat to a point where it's no longer a challenge to them - but you don't necessarily have to make it hard to make a game adventurous, as you experienced with Skyrim.

As an example, I had a chance to beta test SWTOR the past weekend and have been sent on a long quest chain for my starting class. I cannot describe what the quest chain is at it would break the NDA, but the basic point is that the chain progressed in such a way that leveling, as you said, was more of a byproduct of me going through the chain - I really didn't care about the little progress bar going because I was too engrossed in the story of the class chain. At the same time, the old MMO tropes kicked in, which allowed me to set up my build and palette and throw on the optimal equipment I needed to get through the story.

If the achievement system comes with proper and unique rewards it has bright future. Bottom line is people want loot to show off.

I think you missed the point of his last statement. Notice in the OP the poster said he felt like he accomplished something with his adventures without loot or levels - he's hoping XIV 2.0 is capable of doing that. I'm hoping there will be something for people in both camps.

[Geesus]

Here's the thing OP, Hiromichi Tanaka actually TRIED to do what you are speaking of with Guild Leves. The problem is, it was slow and laborious for those who wanted to blow from R1-50 (R when it was called Rank at release that is). So when the game began to fail, things were changed and leves were no longer the avenue for leveling; it went back to the typical MMO of grind grind instance dungeon grind grind oh wait there's a story in the game too?! O.o grind grind...shall I go on? So you can place blame on the typical MMO players that all they WANT to do is QQ grind stroke their e-peens and move on to the next shiny boxed MMORPG that comes out.

Someone tried to change it and it was changed back. That's not the ONLY reason, and I'm not saying it was as there WERE others but, if you look back at the early blog posts in Lodestone and anywhere else that still has an archive of them, THAT complaint of what your "Ah-ha" moment is is what changed this game from being "outside the box".

[Bahn]

Here's the thing OP, Hiromichi Tanaka actually TRIED to do what you are speaking of with Guild Leves. The problem is, it was slow and laborious for those who wanted to blow from R1-50 (R when it was called Rank at release that is). So when the game began to fail, things were changed and leves were no longer the avenue for leveling; it went back to the typical MMO of grind grind instance dungeon grind grind oh wait there's a story in the game too?! O.o grind grind...shall I go on? So you can place blame on the typical MMO players that all they WANT to do is QQ grind stroke their e-peens and move on to the next shiny boxed MMORPG that comes out.

Someone tried to change it and it was changed back. That's not the ONLY reason, and I'm not saying it was as there WERE others but, if you look back at the early blog posts in Lodestone and anywhere else that still has an archive of them, THAT complaint of what your "Ah-ha" moment is is what changed this game from being "outside the box".

You know the funny thing is, I actually like leves because they give me a break from grinding beastmen, raptors, molting mitelings, etc. They're rather shallow quests (kill this mob at this location, defend this area, etc) but they actually give me a break from banging my head repeatedly against the proverbial grinding wall because at least they're different. Mind you - I play solo - a low man group. I'm not interested in being in a linkshell nor doing 8-man content - that's simply not my thing. Of course, I know I'm placing a physical restriction on myself because of it, but that's simply my choice. Levequests are more or less my "content that doesn't feel like the same crap over and over again". I've had funny moments in leves where a teammate of mine was being chased by a pack of angry mobs and I had to literally chase the mobs down from one end of the map to the other while my teammate was fleeing for his life. The relief and accomplishment we felt at the end of that was awesome - the exp and gil we gained didn't matter.

It's stuff like that I want to be able to experience in this game - not the grindgrindgrindgrind DURR IT'S AN MMO SO GRIND WHILE U GRIND aspect.

[Geesus]

You know the funny thing is, I actually like leves because they give me a break from grinding beastmen, raptors, molting mitelings, etc. They're rather shallow quests (kill this mob at this location, defend this area, etc) but they actually give me a break from banging my head repeatedly against the proverbial grinding wall because at least they're different. Mind you - I play solo - a low man group. I'm not interested in being in a linkshell nor doing 8-man content - that's simply not my thing. Of course, I know I'm placing a physical restriction on myself because of it, but that's simply my choice. Levequests are more or less my "content that doesn't feel like the same crap over and over again". I've had funny moments in leves where a teammate of mine was being chased by a pack of angry mobs and I had to literally chase the mobs down from one end of the map to the other while my teammate was fleeing for his life. The relief and accomplishment we felt at the end of that was awesome - the exp and gil we gained didn't matter.

It's stuff like that I want to be able to experience in this game - not the grindgrindgrindgrind DURR IT'S AN MMO SO GRIND WHILE U GRIND aspect.

LOL I know what you mean in all of this ^ lmfao.

But that's why I brought it up. The OP sates or actually claifies by saying that XIV is just like every other MMORPG; yes, in some senses it is but when it was created to be different, people bitched! Their bitching now just from the class reforms post and we HAVEN'T EVEN FUCKING PLAYED THE NEW STUFF YET!!! WTF?!

/endrage

All I'm saying is, you can't shouldn't complain about something because all you end up doing is putting yourself in the same group of people who DID complain and changed what YOU wanted. No one or I should say VERY FEW people on these forums actually compromises or can debate with out flaming either each other or SE/Yoshi/the Dev team. It's honestly at times embarrassing. The JP side always has a thread or 2 on one subject not 800 of the same GD THING and occasionally there are the trolls but it's handled with decorum and grace.

Anyway, unfortunately OP, your "Ah-hah" moment went and ahhh'd itself out the door when enough people complained so you should find them and voice your concerns with them; maybe you'll understand where the "out of the box" went.

[Chinook]

It's funny, cause what you describe in your OP is the direction I think FFXIV is taking.

Less grind-oriented (just look at the time it takes it takes to get a class to 50), and more content as you progress.

Anyway, it's hard to judge FFXIV until 2.0 anyway.