My "ah-ha!" moment of FFXIV

[Vyncent]

Can someone please explain why we're comparing a MMO to a console title?

Sorry, that's my fault. I was using Skyrim to exemplify a point and rather than clarify, it confused.

To summarize what I was trying to articulate: levelling should be a by-product, rather than the goal, of a game.

My point meant to show that Skyrim accomplishes that (IMO), but FFXIV falls short, and therefore doesn't meet my own definition of "fun".

[Answa]

Sorry, that's my fault. I was using Skyrim to exemplify a point and rather than clarify, it confused.

To summarize what I was trying to articulate: levelling should be a by-product, rather than the goal, of a game.

My point meant to show that Skyrim accomplishes that (IMO), but FFXIV falls short, and therefore doesn't meet my own definition of "fun".

The point is that when you mix together different players with different levels, you can't just adjust content to that party. It's unworkable. There's a ton of quests between Lv. 1-50 that give you EXP, as well as guildeves, etc. Grinding is just faster, and not really a bad thing. I see so many people talking about FFXIV being a grind fest. But really, what MMO isn't?

[Vyncent]

The point is that when you mix together different players with different levels, you can't just adjust content to that party. It's unworkable. There's a ton of quests between Lv. 1-50 that give you EXP, as well as guildeves, etc. Grinding is just faster, and not really a bad thing. I see so many people talking about FFXIV being a grind fest. But really, what MMO isn't?

Despite knowingly heading down a rabbit hole with this question, I must counter with: what says they should be?

I believe the genre has boxed itself in with its thinking that grinding = playtime = revenue. I further believe that the model has become tired, and there is an excellent opportunity now to move away from it; maybe not with FFXIV, but with the next-big-title. I see "achievement" systems being used more and more as a means of measurement, and will likely one day be used for character progression instead of the levelling tread-mill, which itself hinders and prohibits new sales unless significant investments are made to hardware/infrastructure to support "brand-new" or "from-scratch" servers.

Revisiting the drawing board with a focus on achievement-based progression is the bright future of gaming.

[Bahn]

I believe the genre has boxed itself in with its thinking that grinding = playtime = revenue. I further believe that the model has become tired, and there is an excellent opportunity now to move away from it; maybe not with FFXIV, but with the next-big-title. I see "achievement" systems being used more and more as a means of measurement, and will likely one day be used for character progression instead of the levelling tread-mill, which itself hinders and prohibits new sales unless significant investments are made to hardware/infrastructure to support "brand-new" or "from-scratch" servers.

Revisiting the drawing board with a focus on achievement-based progression is the bright future of gaming.

That's the problem I have with the MMO genre at the moment. There are certain tropes to the genre that just make an MMO not much different from one another. 2.0 will definitely be good, but I doubt it will bring anything revolutionary for the genre to the table. It still sticks to an old and dated holy trinity formula, it will be using jobs that are throwback to XI, it will only be "catching up" with the MMOs of today.

I do agree more MMOs should focus on the online adventure aspect - something more interactive that gets your blood boiling or makes you want to care more about what's going on with your characters. Endgame players have the Ifrit fight and Dzmael down pat to a point where it's no longer a challenge to them - but you don't necessarily have to make it hard to make a game adventurous, as you experienced with Skyrim.

As an example, I had a chance to beta test SWTOR the past weekend and have been sent on a long quest chain for my starting class. I cannot describe what the quest chain is at it would break the NDA, but the basic point is that the chain progressed in such a way that leveling, as you said, was more of a byproduct of me going through the chain - I really didn't care about the little progress bar going because I was too engrossed in the story of the class chain. At the same time, the old MMO tropes kicked in, which allowed me to set up my build and palette and throw on the optimal equipment I needed to get through the story.

If the achievement system comes with proper and unique rewards it has bright future. Bottom line is people want loot to show off.

I think you missed the point of his last statement. Notice in the OP the poster said he felt like he accomplished something with his adventures without loot or levels - he's hoping XIV 2.0 is capable of doing that. I'm hoping there will be something for people in both camps.