Is EX/Savage content a battle or a dance number?

[HyoMinPark]

I know my opinion on this is going to be very unpopular, but at this point I just don't care anymore.

Guess what? Same problem happens with EX/Savage. The required skill for the current content is just far to high above the average player to complete it. It's so high, in fact, that even good players often have to spend hours each week working on it. This isn't some quick "hey random-dude-i-hardly-know, can you make me a thing-a-ma-bob?", it's a serious time commitment to get into this stuff. If you are interested in it, but your friends aren't good enough (even if they happen to be interested in it), you're kind of stuck. Even if you bother to seek out a static that is good enough to go for it, you're going to have to resign to reserving several hours per week to your "new" friends giving your old friends the cold shoulder.

The only solution is to quit making content that's well beyond the abilities of an average player.

Could the bolded statements in this post make the “average player” sound any more like an incompetent fool? Savage content in this game is not some extremely hard thing that can only be done by 1% of the playerbase (the “hardcore players”). A lot of “average players” can and have cleared Savage content. Stop creating a divide between players, and insinuating that the “average player” cannot do hard content. I very much consider myself an “average player” that has some borderline “hardcore” tendencies due to the sheer amount of time I play this game while not busy with school or other life/adult things, and I find it mildly insulting that you think Savage content is something above “the average player’s” skill level (for the record, I have cleared this tier).

Also, seems like a lot of people find more than enough time to run with their statics, and also socialize with friends. Some players are in statics comprised of nothing but their friends. It’s not an impossible feat to deviate X amount of hours to raiding and Y amount of hours to goofing off with your friends.

And with regards to “spending several hours a week” and “its a serious commitment to get into [Savage]”, the same applies to anything in this game: crafting, gathering, leveling alt jobs, level alt characters, role-playing, Savage, etc.. The example/comparison-contrast you’ve given with Crafting and Savage is a very poor example.

Adding to this post so as to not use up another post count:

And even if you do happen to be fine with fracturing the player base between those who clear savage and those who can't (or chose not to in order to spend time with their friends), you face another problem:

Again, if you are neglecting your friends to clear Savage, that’s on you. Not because the content demands it.

Development costs. I'm more than certain that SE has spent more on developing unending coil than they will get from 6 months of subscription time of all the players who will even attempt it between 4.11 and 4.20 (when ilvl is expected to increase) especially since you can't even attempt it without an O4S clear.

Ultimate was a lot of reused and retuned assets. Some things were new, yes, but not the overwhelming majority. Also, considering when Ultimate dropped, FFXIV had the highest view rating on Twitch that it has EVER had, that is a most definite plus. Because now people are paying attention to the game, and that can bring in new players if they see something they like about it.

Also, 5150 from the JP playerbase received a sponsorship deal with their Ultimate stream.

There's quite a bit of noise that we seem to be getting less and less content each patch, and if SE continues to try to develop content that most players will never even see, that notion will only gain more and more traction.

I will agree that 4.1 was incredibly stale in terms of content; if I wasn’t raiding, I would not be logging in. However, trying to say that Savage/Ultimate is taking away from casual content is false. 4.1 was empty not because of Ultimate, but because the developers, once again, delayed Eureka, which is now probably not coming out until AFTER 4.2 (probably in 4.25 something from what I’ve been hearing). So while 4.1 was stale, don’t blame it on Ultimate.

Basically, I'm not saying difficult games shouldn't exist, but rather that difficult content shouldn't exist within an MMO where a majority of the content can be cleared by casual players.

“Casual players” can still clear Savage—“casual” does not equate to “bad” or “poorly skilled.” Just means that they may not be as invested in the game time-wise as more “hardcore” players. A lot of casual players complain about the negative connotations behind calling them “casual”, usually equating it with being “sub par”, and yet you’re using “casual” in a negative sense: you are insinuating that “casual players” are not good enough to clear Savage. Which, again, it not some game-breakingly difficult content that only 1% of players can ever clear.

[-BlueGreen-]

Could the bolded statements in this post make the “average player” sound any more like an incompetent fool?

Let's see, almost 2 full weeks for the first clear of unending coil. I guess we can all spare that kind of time that took, right?

If you're clearing this stuff and you think you're "average", then you're being overly modest. This is what you get when you take some truly average players into O1S:

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/fNG1v...pe=damage-done

That clear came after about 3 weeks of working on it about 8 hours per week (and even then we had to fill in the two healer slots with random people from the PF because we just couldn't get enough FC members for it at the time). Personally, I learned and cleared it in a single night about 3 weeks before the above clear. In that three weeks, I was either in O1S with them helping them to learn it and improve or we were running other things to help them get better gear.

Don't believe me? Take another look:
O1 story 50th percentile (average players can clear this):
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/16...amount&boss=38

O1 savage 20th percentile:
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=42&dataset=20

The 50th percentile (average) DPSer from O1 story can't even match the 20th percentile of people clearing O1S. Given current ilvls and such, at this point a full team of all ~20th percentile savage raiders could probably clear O1S, but I doubt they would get a whole lot further than that. Players who tend to struggle to even do 20th percentile numbers in savage often tend to struggle with just surviving mechanics.

By the way, I quickly looked you up on fflogs and you are being entirely too modest when you call yourself average. Even though my performance percentile pales in comparison to yours, even I don't have a right to call myself average.

[Dualgunner]

Let's see, almost 2 full weeks for the first clear of unending coil. I guess we can all spare that kind of time that took, right?

If you're clearing this stuff and you think you're "average", then you're being overly modest. This is what you get when you take some truly average players into O1S:

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/fNG1v...pe=damage-done

That clear came after about 3 weeks of working on it about 8 hours per week (and even then we had to fill in the two healer slots with random people from the PF because we just couldn't get enough FC members for it at the time). Personally, I learned and cleared it in a single night about 3 weeks before the above clear. In that three weeks, I was either in O1S with them helping them to learn it and improve or we were running other things to help them get better gear.

Are you using anecdote? Really? Your one selective experience is what the entire average player population has experienced?

Don't believe me? Take another look:
O1 story 50th percentile (average players can clear this):
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/16...amount&boss=38

A whopping 1,567 parses uploaded for DPS.

O1 savage 20th percentile:
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=42&dataset=20

28,836 parses.

The 50th percentile (average) DPSer from O1 story can't even match the 20th percentile of people clearing O1S. Given current ilvls and such, at this point a full team of all ~20th percentile savage raiders could probably clear O1S, but I doubt they would get a whole lot further than that. Players who tend to struggle to even do 20th percentile numbers in savage often tend to struggle with just surviving mechanics.

Are you claiming that the data pool from o1 story, with 1567 parses, can be compared to the data pool from o1s, with 28,836 parses? I could claim the data is skewed because people generally don't upload outside of Savage and EX.

By the way, I quickly looked you up on fflogs and you are being entirely too modest when you call yourself average. Even though my performance percentile pales in comparison to yours, even I don't have a right to call myself average.

Perhaps she means average in that she doesn't dedicate overmuch time to this, or to raiding in general? Her numbers themselves don't necessarily push her out of the average player activity trends.

[KaivaC]

snip

I'm really loving how BlueGreen totally ignored the response that I wanted him to respond to. I made it all nice and presentable.
I'm not irritated...nope, not at all.

*veins in forehead*

I'm going to leave this to you to shut this down. Can I trust you?

[-BlueGreen-]

I'm really loving how BlueGreen totally ignored the response that I wanted him to respond to. I made it all nice and presentable.
I'm not irritated...nope, not at all.

*veins in forehead*

I'm going to leave this to you to shut this down. Can I trust you?

Two whole pages were added to this thread from the time I joined in until the post I'm writing now. It's not that I ignored you, but rather that I simply didn't see your post. I double-checked, and the below post seems to be the one you want a response to (please correct me if I'm wrong, but the only other post I saw from you within this time wasn't a reply to me, but to the OP instead):

Umm...I'm definitely an average player.

While there's not as many parses for you on fflogs, from what I did find, you at least know what you're saying for your DPS classes. I'd venture to say that you might actually be somewhat above average for when you play healing roles, but healing/tanking involve way more metrics to quantify them than just DPS.

Having friends or an FC is better, but these fights are definitely doable, so long as you understand the fight and actually know how to do your job. Besides, it is called Extreme/Savage for a reason. These aren't meant to be faceroll fights, nor should they ever be.

It's an MMO. You get online, you meet people, make friends, and do things with those friends. Without them, you might as well be playing some single player game with top-notch AI (to replace the other players). Of course, what you could say that FFXIV has that most single player games (if not all) have is that FFXIV gets regular updates and expansions to the story. Granted, for as much as you pay to play FFXIV (that subscription sure adds up quick), you should hope to at least get that much.

As for your Mario comment, I seem to recall that Super Mario Bros. had a punishing level towards the end with the Hammer Bros. And SMB3 had quite a few difficult as hell stages. I'm not sure why you brought Mario into this discussion. Please explain.

I remember having some difficulty with some parts, too, but I also remember being like 5 or 6 at the time as well. I'm also talking about the newer Mario games and not as much the older ones. In the *new* Super Mario Brothers, do you know what happens when you play multi-player and someone gets hit when they're small mario (or the equivalent of)? They don't die... they get trapped in a bubble that can be broken by another player without costing anyone a life. Basically, the whole team has to wipe before anyone loses a life in multi-player. It's kind of hard for it to be challenging at that point.

Anyway, I brought it (and indirectly, stuff like dark souls) into this discussion to point out something about them: They're consistent. Start to end they play roughly the same with an expected level of difficulty throughout and a learning curve that shouldn't surprise anyone at any point after the first few levels. Some Mario games even have a challenge mode added to them of sorts (that usually consists of playing the same levels again, but with the goal of collecting a set of special coins hidden in each level).

Besides, it is called Extreme/Savage for a reason.

Yup, because they're harder than the base game. Extreme/Savage/Challenge, call it whatever you want, but the idea is the same. So yes, the current ex/savage/ultimate content fits that basic description, but I'm pointing out that the learning curve on those doesn't fit in with the rest of the game.

Finally, it's late and I need to get some sleep. If there's anyone else wanting me to weigh in on anything, don't expect a reply soon (if at all).

[KaivaC]

While there's not as many parses for you on fflogs, from what I did find, you at least know what you're saying for your DPS classes. I'd venture to say that you might actually be somewhat above average for when you play healing roles, but healing/tanking involve way more metrics to quantify them than just DPS.

Hmm? I have recent parses? I thought my last one was way back in October? I don’t understand FFLOGs, so I don’t mess with it. And you have multiple quotes…the bane of my existence on these forums. Ugh…I hate multiple quotes lol. Lemme give this a shot.

It's an MMO. You get online, you meet people, make friends, and do things with those friends. Without them, you might as well be playing some single player game with top-notch AI (to replace the other players). Of course, what you could say that FFXIV has that most single player games (if not all) have is that FFXIV gets regular updates and expansions to the story. Granted, for as much as you pay to play FFXIV (that subscription sure adds up quick), you should hope to at least get that much.

I do end up doing some things with my FC, but in regards to what we are currently talking about, all of my clears save for maybe one or two recent runs on Savage have been randoms. I don’t agree with the sentiment that not having friends means that I’m essentially playing a single player game. If I make friends, fine. If not, it doesn’t mean I’m playing single player. When people play Call of Duty multiplayer, are they playing a single-player game if they don’t friend up? When people go into WoW and join a guild, only playing with them for raid reasons, are they only playing a single-player game with supposed top-notch AI (which we know isn’t true a good portion of the time, otherwise we wouldn’t have the behemoth that is Tales from the Duty Finder).

I remember having some difficulty with some parts, too, but I also remember being like 5 or 6 at the time as well. I'm also talking about the newer Mario games and not as much the older ones. In the *new* Super Mario Brothers, do you know what happens when you play multi-player and someone gets hit when they're small mario (or the equivalent of)? They don't die... they get trapped in a bubble that can be broken by another player without costing anyone a life. Basically, the whole team has to wipe before anyone loses a life in multi-player. It's kind of hard for it to be challenging at that point.

Anyway, I brought it (and indirectly, stuff like dark souls) into this discussion to point out something about them: They're consistent. Start to end they play roughly the same with an expected level of difficulty throughout and a learning curve that shouldn't surprise anyone at any point after the first few levels. Some Mario games even have a challenge mode added to them of sorts (that usually consists of playing the same levels again, but with the goal of collecting a set of special coins hidden in each level).

Admittedly, MSQ did not prepare players for Savage. I remember the difficulty steadily increasing as I went through HW, but I felt that most of 4.0 was a faceroll. Then you run into Shinryu and it’s a surprisingly difficult fight that you were not prepared for, considering it’s a story boss. Consistency is definitely a problem that we are seeing with SB. Yet still, all it takes is a few runs to understand that this is going to be a tough fight, and O1S doesn’t really have many mechanics that are different if you’ve gone through MSQ.

Yup, because they're harder than the base game. Extreme/Savage/Challenge, call it whatever you want, but the idea is the same. So yes, the current ex/savage/ultimate content fits that basic description, but I'm pointing out that the learning curve on those doesn't fit in with the rest of the game.

Finally, it's late and I need to get some sleep. If there's anyone else wanting me to weigh in on anything, don't expect a reply soon (if at all).

Hahah, I have the advantage of being a graveshift worker, so I am wide awake and this place stimulates my need to do something. Like I pointed out above, SB was horrible as gradually scaling up difficulty. Players still need to be able to adjust to the punishment. Yea, it’s a huge step up, but take my example – I didn’t need friends or a static to clear it. I didn’t even need to spend ‘hours upon hours’ to clear it. The basic were explained and I cleared the fight in the same week.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Let's see, almost 2 full weeks for the first clear of unending coil. I guess we can all spare that kind of time that took, right?

You mean the content specifically designed for World First/Extremely Hardcore raiders that only reused already existing assets? How about we look at Savage, which was cleared in twenty hours; thirty four for the previous tier.

If you're clearing this stuff and you think you're "average", then you're being overly modest. This is what you get when you take some truly average players into O1S:

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/fNG1v...pe=damage-done

This may sound harsh, however those aren't average players. They're simply bad, or inexperienced. Alte Roite is a complete pushover if you put forth a reasonable enough effort to learn what little mechanics he throws at you. How about instead of complaining how difficult the fights are you practice? At this point, it almost seems like you're arguing for a participation trophy. Referencing Story mode is irrelevant as very few people bother to upload parses from it, thus the results will be heavily skewed. Regardless, once again, the whole purpose behind themepark MMOs is diverse content for multiple demographics. Savage aims at appealing towards players who wish to challenge themselves not the "average" player just looking to play for fun. If that were all FFXIV offered, it'd get rather boring since what point would any of the gear, consumable and etc even serve?

[Sunhwapark]

This is what you get when you take some truly average players into O1S;

SEND HELP

[Dualgunner]

SEND HELP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHSh9rWGR0Q

[HyoMinPark]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHSh9rWGR0Q

That is amazing.