Is EX/Savage content a battle or a dance number?

[Sunhwapark]

This is what you get when you take some truly average players into O1S;

SEND HELP

[Dualgunner]

SEND HELP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHSh9rWGR0Q

[HyoMinPark]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHSh9rWGR0Q

That is amazing.

[-BlueGreen-]

They're still outsold, but when you're presenting numbers you should probably take into account multi-console releases, especially if the site tracks their sales differently.

I even spelled out the point of those numbers and you still missed the point.

The alternative is everybody steamrolling everything in their path(and who enjoys that?).

Did you not enjoy clearing story mode for the first time? Sure, grinding it out for weeks after that for gear was boring, but I'm talking about the first clear. The 2nd clear of EX/Savage content basically felt much the same to me.

You mean all the reused assets and minimal development/balancing time that went into Ultimate that the devs have said affected nothing else?

Someone had to design the fight, script it, code it, test it, and balance it. Even if the boss/attack/area models and animations were reused, there's still the reward weapons that needed some work.

A single 8-hour day for a junior-level software developer costs a company roughly $175-$225 USD. Even if you assume this whole thing took just 4 man-weeks, that's $3,500-$4,500 USD, and for something that attracts the hardcore community as much as this, you can bet not everyone who was involved with this was some junior-level developer (at least at the concept level, those guys were paid more, and I'm not even tallying in indirect costs such as how much time/pay for supervisors for these developers).

Looking over my numbers, and out-of-thin-air estimate for the development time required, my original comparison was probably a bit hasty as it would only take about 40ish players @ 6 months of subscription time to break even with the costs. Of course, it would also probably be silly to say that someone subbed for 6 whole months just for unending coil. A better metric would probably be to tally up the total number of hours spent by all players attempting/clearing it and compute the average income per hour from the subscription of those players and see if that compares to the cost of adding this content. The problem here is that I wouldn't even begin to know how to estimate that as you'd need to know the subscription level (entry/standard), recurring subscription duration (standard costs less when subbing multiple months at a time), average play time in hours over the subscription period, and the number of those hours spent in unending coil for each player to compute that metric.

You said it yourself, the majority of content can be done by casual players. So raiders and people who want a challenge, but at the same time love this game, should absolutely be able to get something harder. Something worth gearing up to do.

Covered this already:

do you think Nintendo would sell very many more copies of Mario games if they started tuning the last set of levels in each game to the level that FFXIV's savage content is tuned to? Hell no.

Basically, Mario wouldn't be nearly as popular today if Nintendo had decided that worlds 1-7 would be straightforward and easy, but world 8 would be insanely hard to where only about 10% of players could clear it. For a player clearing 80% of the content of a game, it's not unreasonable for them to believe the last 20% won't be much different. And sure, while savage/ultimate isn't really story, I think a lot of the friction between player groups on this issue stems from the sheer jump in difficulty between story and ex/savage content. Many players see that content and want a clear of it for the sake of having a clear of it.

To tie back in with the OP's complaint here, the way I see it, the problem isn't quite as much with the fact that savage/ultimate exists, but rather with how it's executed. It depends entirely too much on strict DPS checks for enrage, dodging predictable but unbroadcast attacks, and mechanics where if one person on the team falls, the whole team falls (quite often because this is in combination with the strict DPS checks). Sure, I would agree that you probably couldn't claim anything to be nearly as difficult if you remove enrages and the whole team dies if one person dies type of things from these fights. At that point a core group of good tanks/healers could probably drag four DPS through just about anything, but what that does enable is weak players to 'hide' behind the DPS roles as deaths/under-performance from them could be shrugged off in such fights. In fact, I'd argue that as a healer/tank, dragging a half-dead team through some of the 24-man raids have been some of the most fun I've had.

I think trying to add content at such difficulty levels into this game is like trying to make this game the 'one' game that everybody plays because it has something for everybody. Could you imagine SE trying to draw in hardcore RTS players to buy and subscribe to FFXIV just because the gold saucer has Lord of Verminion? Of course not, that'd be silly. The key difference between GS stuff and savage/ultimate is that GS is basically solo content... do it if you like it, improve at your own pace, but even in PvP (tournaments and such), you're still using your own skill to compete. Additionally, GS is presented as a side distraction that 'anyone' can do (as in, a person wouldn't have to be the hero of light to walk in there), so it feels like something you can do (or not) at anytime when you have time to 'waste'. On the other hand, the basic concept of an MMORPG is to be the hero (well, one of many, but that depends a bit on the storytelling), that goes out, kills the big, bad monster, and saves the world. Even though the savage/ultimate tier isn't story content, to some it feels like SE has dropped in some kind of unkillable monster.

Point here is: Who are you to dictate what other people should enjoy?

I've not tried to do this. I'm trying to be realistic here. I see it all the time where a player plays FFXIV, enjoys the story and such, gets to the point where they unlock current ex/savage content, hit that wall with their face, and quit. Most of the time, they don't come back even when the MSQ is expanded in a later patch.

If you want an MMO with that level of difficulty, be consistent. Make the entire game about that same level of difficulty. You'll get a less friction from your subscribers that way because they'll know from the start what to expect through to the end. If you have trouble getting enough subscribers for such an MMO, then that's probably a sign that the kind of content you're looking for just isn't feasible in an MMO format.

[KaivaC]

snip

I'm really loving how BlueGreen totally ignored the response that I wanted him to respond to. I made it all nice and presentable.
I'm not irritated...nope, not at all.

*veins in forehead*

I'm going to leave this to you to shut this down. Can I trust you?

[-BlueGreen-]

SEND HELP

lol, exactly. I know I saw at least 1-2 such wipes with the group I helped clear in my FC. That much time to clear a single savage mode fight was just too demanding for them. Yes, we cleared it, and yes there was some joy in that, but the end result still crushed the group and they just didn't even try O2S after that. So sure, average players can probably be eventually improved to the level to clear savage content, but said average players would probably need above average tenacity to not quit before they've spent enough time to get good enough.

[Cakekizyy]

Honest question: If someone has trouble memorizing mechanics, then aren't they already kinda experiencing an rng fight that you seem to covet? If you can't react to the stuff on the fly, what makes you think you would fare better if it were truly designed that way?

I'm also curious as to what a fight would be without mechanics to fail. IMO that's called a target dummy, and they're not very fun to beat up on.

It would be like EQ fights. Straight up tank and spank. I miss those days.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Basically, Mario wouldn't be nearly as popular today if Nintendo had decided that worlds 1-7 would be straightforward and easy, but world 8 would be insanely hard to where only about 10% of players could clear it. For a player clearing 80% of the content of a game, it's not unreasonable for them to believe the last 20% won't be much different. And sure, while savage/ultimate isn't really story, I think a lot of the friction between player groups on this issue stems from the sheer jump in difficulty between story and ex/savage content. Many players see that content and want a clear of it for the sake of having a clear of it.

That's a false equivalent fallacy. Mario is a single player game where every piece of content is static. It only appeals to the individual person and has no interest in long term player retention. FFXIV needs continual subscriptions, which will not persist if everything can be steamrolled in a few hours. Furthermore, Savage is essentially a scaled up Normal mode whereas all Mario worlds are a one off. Basically, Savage is designed exclusively for players looking for a little more. Welcome to theme park MMOs.

Now if you want to keep citing Mario sale statistics, I'll bring up Call of Duty WWII that sold $500M. Guess FFXIV should become a FPS. Ironically, CoD has harder difficulties.

[Dualgunner]

I even spelled out the point of those numbers and you still missed the point.

They're still outsold, but when you're presenting numbers you should probably take into account multi-console releases, especially if the site tracks their sales differently.

I even spelled out why I made the correction and you still missed the point.

Did you not enjoy clearing story mode for the first time? Sure, grinding it out for weeks after that for gear was boring, but I'm talking about the first clear. The 2nd clear of EX/Savage content basically felt much the same to me.

I don't enjoy being taken out of context, that's for sure. That quote is in direct response to

You pretty much have to have a full team of good players to clear such content, you simply can't mix in weaker players even if they are your friend or everyone in the group will just be banging their heads against the wall (and who enjoys that?).

But don't worry, this quote will come back on the other end of you taking me out of context.

Someone had to design the fight, script it, code it, test it, and balance it. Even if the boss/attack/area models and animations were reused, there's still the reward weapons that needed some work.

They need to design the fight, script it, code it, test it, balance it, and design assets for the boss monster and arena for every other savage, extreme, non savage, non extreme, dungeon, and 24 man. You pointing out that there is still work does not negate me saying there's not as much work.

A single 8-hour day for a junior-level software developer costs a company roughly $175-$225 USD. Even if you assume this whole thing took just 4 man-weeks, that's $3,500-$4,500 USD, and for something that attracts the hardcore community as much as this, you can bet not everyone who was involved with this was some junior-level developer (at least at the concept level, those guys were paid more, and I'm not even tallying in indirect costs such as how much time/pay for supervisors for these developers).

Source on this? Which company? Is this a japanese company? What's the conversion rate? What is Yoshi P's salary? Koji Fox's? What are the names of everyone who worked on Ultimate, and how long exactly did they take? Your estimates using random numbers produce random results, so congratulations on that I guess.

Looking over my numbers, and out-of-thin-air estimate for the development time required, my original comparison was probably a bit hasty as it would only take about 40ish players @ 6 months of subscription time to break even with the costs. Of course, it would also probably be silly to say that someone subbed for 6 whole months just for unending coil.

A better metric would probably be to tally up the total number of hours spent by all players attempting/clearing it and compute the average income per hour from the subscription of those players and see if that compares to the cost of adding this content. The problem here is that I wouldn't even begin to know how to estimate that as you'd need to know the subscription level (entry/standard), recurring subscription duration (standard costs less when subbing multiple months at a time), average play time in hours over the subscription period, and the number of those hours spent in unending coil for each player to compute that metric.

You really haven't proven to me that that would stop you before. Up till the bolded point you were very happy to make wild assumptions regarding your...ahem...estimates.

Covered this already:

I think Nintendo could sell a bootleg that they titled "Mario" and make tens of millions at this point, especially since right now Nintendo is the only service that's not bogged down by the Lootbox bull that's plagued so many recent games.

Basically, Mario wouldn't be nearly as popular today if Nintendo had decided that worlds 1-7 would be straightforward and easy, but world 8 would be insanely hard to where only about 10% of players could clear it. For a player clearing 80% of the content of a game, it's not unreasonable for them to believe the last 20% won't be much different. And sure, while savage/ultimate isn't really story, I think a lot of the friction between player groups on this issue stems from the sheer jump in difficulty between story and ex/savage content. Many players see that content and want a clear of it for the sake of having a clear of it.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NintendoHard
It wouldn't be the name of the trope if Nintendo wasn't well known for it.

To tie back in with the OP's complaint here, the way I see it, the problem isn't quite as much with the fact that savage/ultimate exists, but rather with how it's executed. It depends entirely too much on strict DPS checks for enrage, dodging predictable but unbroadcast attacks, and mechanics where if one person on the team falls, the whole team falls (quite often because this is in combination with the strict DPS checks).

No. OP's problem is mechanics are a dance and do not test his actual healing ability. He's stressed this several times that it's not about actual fight difficulty, just that he finds the dance boring.

Sure, I would agree that you probably couldn't claim anything to be nearly as difficult if you remove enrages and the whole team dies if one person dies type of things from these fights. At that point a core group of good tanks/healers could probably drag four DPS through just about anything, but what that does enable is weak players to 'hide' behind the DPS roles as deaths/under-performance from them could be shrugged off in such fights. In fact, I'd argue that as a healer/tank, dragging a half-dead team through some of the 24-man raids have been some of the most fun I've had.

I'm glad you have fun dragging a half dead team through 24-mans. I really am. I have a lot of fun when the whole team coordinates well, and defeats a difficult boss through careful planning and working off of each other's strengths. Are you fine if we both can find our fun in the same game?

I think trying to add content at such difficulty levels into this game is like trying to make this game the 'one' game that everybody plays because it has something for everybody. Could you imagine SE trying to draw in hardcore RTS players to buy and subscribe to FFXIV just because the gold saucer has Lord of Verminion? Of course not, that'd be silly.

Can you imagine Halo removing campaign just because people love multiplayer more? No, that'd be silly. That's basically what you're advocating for when you say nothing should be raid tier in this game.

The key difference between GS stuff and savage/ultimate is that GS is basically solo content... do it if you like it, improve at your own pace, but even in PvP (tournaments and such), you're still using your own skill to compete. Additionally, GS is presented as a side distraction that 'anyone' can do (as in, a person wouldn't have to be the hero of light to walk in there), so it feels like something you can do (or not) at anytime when you have time to 'waste'. On the other hand, the basic concept of an MMORPG is to be the hero (well, one of many, but that depends a bit on the storytelling), that goes out, kills the big, bad monster, and saves the world. Even though the savage/ultimate tier isn't story content, to some it feels like SE has dropped in some kind of unkillable monster.

I've not tried to do this. I'm trying to be realistic here. I see it all the time where a player plays FFXIV, enjoys the story and such, gets to the point where they unlock current ex/savage content, hit that wall with their face, and quit. Most of the time, they don't come back even when the MSQ is expanded in a later patch.

You pretty much have to have a full team of good players to clear such content, you simply can't mix in weaker players even if they are your friend or everyone in the group will just be banging their heads against the wall (and who enjoys that?).

Here's the other end of you taking me out of context. You condescendingly asking "And who enjoys that?" in reference to players banging their heads on a wall trying to help otherwise lesser experienced players beat content infers that nobody can; I know many people who do enjoy specifically helping non-raiders raid. In fact I recall Vidu from the forums talking about how she would help people out in the party finder just to help new people beat Extremes, in a thread about raid finder.

If you want an MMO with that level of difficulty, be consistent. Make the entire game about that same level of difficulty.

Why should it? FFVII has a story mode, which is relatively easy, and then after you beat the game there are bosses which drastically ramp up the difficulty. Actually it's a bit of a staple to have a challenge mode that's very loosely at best connected to the story. Game difficulty can work on any curve it wants.

You'll get a less friction from your subscribers that way because they'll know from the start what to expect through to the end. If you have trouble getting enough subscribers for such an MMO, then that's probably a sign that the kind of content you're looking for just isn't feasible in an MMO format.

How about you make your dream raidless MMO and see how that works out. AFAIK, WoW is still the best MMO...and it has harder raids than XIV.

I'm really loving how BlueGreen totally ignored the response that I wanted him to respond to. I made it all nice and presentable.
I'm not irritated...nope, not at all.

*veins in forehead*

I'm going to leave this to you to shut this down. Can I trust you?

XD I can make no promises to shut anything down, only that I'll present my case as best as I can. But I definitely empathize

Umm...I'm definitely an average player. I've gotten my clears on O1S, O2S, and O3S without members of my wonderful FC, a static, or even a particular group. All of my clears and weekly page runs have been done with complete randoms since Day 1 of Omega Savage. It's not as hard as you think. Join or make a learning party, prog for your own sake, and when you're comfortable doing the whole fight, join a clear group or make one. Having friends or an FC is better, but these fights are definitely doable, so long as you understand the fight and actually know how to do your job. Besides, it is called Extreme/Savage for a reason. These aren't meant to be faceroll fights, nor should they ever be.

As for your Mario comment, I seem to recall that Super Mario Bros. had a punishing level towards the end with the Hammer Bros. And SMB3 had quite a few difficult as hell stages. I'm not sure why you brought Mario into this discussion. Please explain.

Here's her post, if you'd like to make a response.

[Sebazy]

Guess what? Same problem happens with EX/Savage. The required skill for the current content is just far to high above the average player to complete it.

Themepark MMOs are built around carrots. You need that carrot to keep the masses occupied even if they can't quite reach it. Look at all the F2P mmos out there, plenty have arguably more engaging gameplay than FFXIV, yet the high end player base retention is typically awful because of the lack of a PvE endgame.

If you made your point during Gordias/Midas I'd be more inclined to agree, but Creator's clear rates were the highest seen yet which I guess fuelled the design brief for Omega.

Someone had to design the fight, script it, code it, test it, and balance it. Even if the boss/attack/area models and animations were reused, there's still the reward weapons that needed some work.

The fight was choreographed by Sudo, it's safe to assume he had a couple of 'pet' 2d/3d interns at his beck and call for designing Endless as well as moderate usage of the internal testing team. Given the difficulty of the encounter, it's safe to assume that it was tested and developed in the same manner as A4S (Aka designed, balanced and tested mechanic by mechanic) to reduce the workload. HD asset creation is the expensive part of any game content, I can tell you this first hand. Unending required very little beyond recolours (weapons included, it's just an extruded glow and recolour if that's the right term?), so compared to Omega, it cost absolute chump change. Whilst clear rates are understandably low, there are still plenty of endgame teams beavering away at it that would have simply run off to Destiny2/WoW long ago without, between that and the Twitch marketing it achieved, I'll be very surprised if they don't view it as a success.

Basically, Mario wouldn't be nearly as popular today if Nintendo had decided that worlds 1-7 would be straightforward and easy, but world 8 would be insanely hard to where only about 10% of players could clear it.

Now you have a much better and really quite valid point here and it's something that SE has fallen short on pretty much since 2.1 and beyond. Namely there simply isn't a difficulty curve to build players up to Savage/EX content. The current answer seems to be to make Savage itself the curve which I don't think sits well with the progression community. Rather, there should be smaller scale content such as dungeons that ease players into the mindset required to take on stuff like ShinryuEX or O3S. As is, there's too big a difference in the skill and attentiveness needed between 'expert' dungeons and the raiding endgame.