Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[Dualgunner]

Here's the issue with nerfing and buffing without addressing the rez issue. If RDM is buff to the level it's suppose to be in 4.2 and leave verraise as is everyone is going to use RDM for Delta Savage v2.0, why wouldn't you?

RDM is only uniquely capable of raising when 4 or more people have died within the span of a minute; up till then, you have two instant raises from the healers, and one from a summoner which vastly outperforms RDM.

It'll do more damage than summoner plus have the ability to save wipes over BLM that can't.

...what? Nobody's asking for RDM to be buffed that hard. You do realize Summoner is literally the strongest dps right now right?

BLM needs a major dps buff and should be on par with SAM since it lacks utility. RDM needs a damage buff, embolden buff, and ver-raise debuff. SMN needs s dps nerf, most likely DoTs reduced to 45 instead of 50.

So you do know SMN is the strongest DPS then. Who told you RDM wants to be buffed to that stupidly insane of a level? The RDM that want buffs just want to either have more damage utility than, or more damage than, a bard.

Most raise utility is reliant on swiftcast which gives gives it a 60s cooldown, without it you have to stand in place for 7+ seconds which is hard with needing to dodge mechanics. Does Ver-raise have that penatly?

If you take Summoner, you have 3 people who have swift. Ideally, people communicate and all three of those swifts aren't burned on one person. If the ideal takes place, 4 people have to die in the space of one minute (before the first swift is off cd) in order for verraise to be uniquely useful.

From my understand all you need to do is proc Dualcast and you get an instant raise. Shouldn't it have some kind of instant cast cooldown penatly like everyone else?

It costs a boatload of damage for the Red Mage. Every vercure and raise that RDM casts costs 300 potency, 11 mana, and 25% of their MP pool. If abused, this leaves RDM absolutely crippled for damage; I don't know where this idea that RDM has unlimited mana comes from, but a lot of people seem to have it, and it's absolutely not true.

But like I said early, I would just rather lose raise all together and give it to the support DPS; BRD and MCH.

I think that's a dumb idea. Why? Because BRD/MCH are already meta. Why give them even more reason to be meta?

why wouldn't you?

Death in this tier has been ridiculously forgiving. If in the next tier, one death equates to a wipe, all the raises in the world wouldn't help.

[Cynfael]

Here's the issue with nerfing and buffing without addressing the rez issue. If RDM is buff to the level it's suppose to be in 4.2 and leave verraise as is everyone is going to use RDM for Delta Savage v2.0, why wouldn't you?

On the other hand, we have the current situation where RDM is clearly disadvantaged in any situation other than progression (and let's not forget that SMN still isn't a slouch in progression, if not on the multi-rez level of RDM).

Personally I'd rather have SMN and RDM have similar overall damage output so that the choice comes down more to personal preference and doesn't make RDM the clear loser once parties stop making so many mistakes.

[Dyvid]

On the other hand, we have the current situation where RDM is clearly disadvantaged in any situation other than progression (and let's not forget that SMN still isn't a slouch in progression, if not on the multi-rez level of RDM).

Personally I'd rather have SMN and RDM have similar overall damage output so that the choice comes down more to personal preference and doesn't make RDM the clear loser once parties stop making so many mistakes.

Clearly this is the goal though utility needs to be taking in account in regards to dps. RDM has to be a little better than SMN in direct damage because SMN bring more indirect damage, and BLM has to be better than RDM because it carries no indirect damage modifiers.

It's also easy to see the entire dps spectrum is completely unbalanced and many jobs need adjustments. But if the entire raise issue isn't address in 4.2, the cycle is going to start all over again with RDM being the shining star for a month then kicked to the curb after everyone loses their training wheels. Worse yet, BLM/SMN are going to sit on the side lines for a month waiting until everyone learns the fight and don't need to relay on wipe savers so much. Shouldn't RDM have a stable career over it's life cycle rather than a yoyo rubber band that only falls into favor once new raids come out?

But you are right, if you buff RDM as is, it'll remain top dog long after it's Rez Mage title fades, but this threads isn't about buff RDM. It's about trying to make BLM relevant again and not being passed over simple because it can't cast raise.

[Dualgunner]

But you are right, if you buff RDM as is, it'll remain top dog long after it's Rez Mage title fades, but this threads isn't about buff RDM. It's about trying to make BLM relevant again and not being passed over simple because it can't cast raise.

This thread isn't about trying to make BLM relevant again; it's calling into question the balance of all three casters. Besides, BLM has about a dozen other threads dedicated to it.

I highly and vehemently disagree with you about the value of raise; you still haven't addressed how dumb an idea it would be to give two already meta jobs even more reason to be meta.

[Dyvid]

This thread isn't about trying to make BLM relevant again; it's calling into question the balance of all three casters. Besides, BLM has about a dozen other threads dedicated to it.

I highly and vehemently disagree with you about the value of raise; you still haven't addressed how dumb an idea it would be to give two already meta jobs even more reason to be meta.

Fine, I'll reply to this question by saying you can't make something more meta. It either is or it isn't. BRD/MCH have always had a spot on raid teams because it was designed to be. The ability to restore TP and MP gave them that slots since ARR. Giving them raise isn't just going make it more of their spot because they already own it. This key issue with BRD, MCH, and even SMN is their dps is too high for the utility or indirect damage they bring. You're a raider, why do you always bring a BRD/MCH? That's rhetorical and don't need an answer.

Anyway, I said my peace on the subject and since I don't raid I really don't care that much anyway. I'm going to continue play SMN in the good times like 4.1 and bad times 4.0. I could care less either way if I lose raise or don't.

[Dualgunner]

Fine, I'll reply to this question by saying you can't make something more meta. It either is or it isn't. BRD/MCH have always had a spot on raid teams because it was designed to be. The ability to restore TP and MP gave them that slots since ARR. Giving them raise isn't just going make it more of their spot because they already own it.

So your answer is "They already have so much, what's the problem with giving them more?" Let me start by saying the meta isn't BRD/MCH, it's BRD&MCH.
There are several issues; I will concede that meta is a binary, it is or isn't. But a meta can be reinforced through dumb decisions putting unfair weight on a role. Two ranged physical locks out a ranged magical. Even as it is, the meta has no casters. It has two melee and two ranged physical. They have so many tools for recovery and support that giving them more would, in fact, reinforce the meta further.

This key issue with BRD, MCH, and even SMN is their dps is too high for the utility or indirect damage they bring. You're a raider, why do you always bring a BRD/MCH? That's rhetorical and don't need an answer.

You say it's rhetorical, but I'll answer it anyway since you may not fully realize the answer as is.
It's not BRD/MCH. It's BRD&MCH. And they're brought because in addition to their suite of party buffs and support, they are damage buffed further by having a dragoon, and even further by having a ninja. They all circle buff each other; the only downside to this meta is you don't have any support raises, in fact. Giving that to bard and machinist? Why don't you just delete the caster role right now?

Anyway, I said my peace on the subject and since I don't raid I really don't care that much anyway. I'm going to continue play SMN in the good times like 4.1 and bad times 4.0. I could care less either way if I lose raise or don't.

I'm glad you enjoy your job. I honestly don't care if they take verraise of the dualcast if it means more damage. But it's incorrect to assert that raise is what's put BLM in its current spot right now: it's that SMN does everything BLM does, but better, and brings more besides.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I agree that they should remove it from RDM/SMN and give it to BRD/MCH.

Are we also nerfing Bard and Machinist's damage into oblivion? Because if not, like Dualgunner said, you've just guaranteed no one will ever even look at casters again. I mean, double BRD would be better than having a BLM or RDM.

[Llugen]

I didn't read all the responses, but BLM does not need to "be a rez dispenser" it just needs access to the ability for the sake of balance (it is the only DoM in the entire game without it), and if creatively implemented, could fit very well into the lore of the job.

A 180s recast off-gcd would be more than suitable for the job. It can save a healer in a dungeon, and it can't be "dispensed". The recast would offset the infinite MP dilemma, and as I said with the right creativity with implementation, it very well can fit the lore. Consider a tether from the raised player that has weakness to the BLM increasing their damage for 20s and if the tether is broken the player just dies again. After it expires, everything is back to normal. Borderline necromancy rather than "white magic" or "arcane".

There ya go.

[Cynfael]

I didn't read all the responses, but BLM does not need to "be a rez dispenser" it just needs access to the ability for the sake of balance (it is the only DoM in the entire game without it), and if creatively implemented, could fit very well into the lore of the job.

A 180s recast off-gcd would be more than suitable for the job. It can save a healer in a dungeon, and it can't be "dispensed". The recast would offset the infinite MP dilemma, and as I said with the right creativity with implementation, it very well can fit the lore. Consider a tether from the raised player that has weakness to the BLM increasing their damage for 20s and if the tether is broken the player just dies again. After it expires, everything is back to normal. Borderline necromancy rather than "white magic" or "arcane".

There ya go.

Personally I don't care about Lore reasons because you can retcon anything in a high-fantasy/science-fantasy setting like this.

As a BLM, I simply do not want a rez. Every other magic Job scrapes corpses off the floor, and it's nice not to share that identity and that onus.

Admittedly this is a matter of personal taste, but I don't see why BLM can't be made more desirable without further homogenizing the magic Jobs. You can add whatever conditions and flavor text you like, but allowing BLM to raise people in any capacity does exactly that to some degree.

[Llugen]

There is a fine line between homogenizing and balance.

I would most certainly argue that one caster with rez dispenser every other GCD, one caster with the ability to hardcast/swiftcast it, and one with an off-GCD 180s cooldown is far from "homogenized".

The fact that the role should have access to the ability and BLM doesn't is the issue. This only adds to parties' disgust at the idea of including BLM in the roster.