Is EX/Savage content a battle or a dance number?

[Vaer]

"Okay, tankbuster coming in. I better precast a big heal, get a barrier on them. Alright...roomwide AoE, need to counter with AoE heal before the boss drops that special attack that causes a player to take <x> damage, where <x> is the amount they're currently under max HP. Anyone under half will be dead...

That's exactly what endgame content in this game is though? I mean you said you liked A8N. Most of that fight and especially the last part of that fight is literally a "dance". Dodge and stack, shared tank buster, mega beam, super jump, frontal lasers, generic raid aoe. The intermission is just drop circle aoes, stack for twin buster, run away from center + do up/down panel + dodge mega beam. I mean the only difference is that it is less punishing but if you turn one shot mechanics into slap on the wrist mechanics they will probably be mostly ignored and healed through, lowering the difficulty of the fight.

[Ameela]

"Local finds out they're playing a video game, results are shocking"

Like, seriously? Pattern memorisation has been a part of games since... pretty much ever? Like when you're playing Mega Man 2 do you complain because you need to dodge Air Man's attacks and only way to do that is to know what they do beforehand?
If you want a battle with no mechanics there's always Stone Sky Sea, that might be more up your alley.

[Xerek]

"Local finds out they're playing a video game, results are shocking"

Like, seriously? Pattern memorisation has been a part of games since... pretty much ever? Like when you're playing Mega Man 2 do you complain because you need to dodge Air Man's attacks and only way to do that is to know what they do beforehand?
If you want a battle with no mechanics there's always Stone Sky Sea, that might be more up your alley.

"Someone disagrees, forum reply is snide and condencending. Arrogant response that ignores the point of the post outright. Shocking."

As much as I'm tempted to pat you on your adorable little troll head, I suppose I should do what you seem unable or unwilling to...namely provide a polite and relevant reply.

Had you bothered to actually read my reply, you'd have seen the part where I said difficulty had nothing to do with it. There are two types of mechanics in these fights. Ones that are countered by using class skills and abilities, and ones that are countered through a specific set of movements. The latter are what I refer to as "dance steps", and it is those I don't find fun in large quantities. The former I quite enjoy.

As for Mega Man 2, that game was a joke compared to the original. Yes, those games had arbitrary pattern memorization. That blob boss was a pain in the ass. Didn't mean it was fun. And if I recall, those games came out what, 25 years ago? Forgive me for having hoped video games evolved in a quarter-century. Is FF XIV exactly like Ultima Online or Everquest 1? Of course not. Yet you make it sound like it's natural, even expected to have 25-year old mechanics in FF XIV. I'm guessing you think XIV should be on cartridge? It should be 8-bit? Side-scroller? Of course not. Now that I've blown your innane reply out of the water...

I'll stop here. If you couldn't be bothered to actually read my post, I doubt you've gotten this far. Fair warning, you get one reply from me as a freebee. Continue to be nasty and condesending and you'll get the same treatment I give all trolls...that being not wasting another word or minute on you.

Thanks. I needed a laugh, and your mix of arrogance and ignorance provoked a pretty healthy one! ^.^

[Annoynymoose]

Watching a video =/= Trying it out.

I used to think I could cheese through O3S after watching the video guide.

I was so wrong. Very, very wrong.

[Xerek]

Now to reply to most everyone else, who have been polite in their replies. I apologize for the prior post. Sometimes you need to slap trolls down.

I'll try one last time to explain. There seems to be a disconnect. I'm not properly conveying what I specifically take issue with. A few people understand, and tried to clarify. For that I'm thankful.

First, to be crystal clear, this has nothing to do with difficulty. I'm not saying anything is too hard.

The issue is in feeling like I'm dancing more then fighting. It comes down to two kinds of mechanics. You have attacks like Twin Bolt, where you have damage that needs to mitigated, barriered and healed. This type of mechanic is countered by class abilities. These are the type I enjoy. The second type are mechanics that are countered solely by movement/positioning, such as Classical Elements. This type are the ones I refer to as dance steps. I feel there are far too many of the latter, making it feel more like a choreographed dance then a proper fight. And as such, it really doesn't feel fun.

I've said it before, and will say it again. This is my opinion. I am not asking for changes. I have said a number of times prior that I understand there are people that enjoy those dance step mechanics. I simply wanted to see what people thought. Some feel the same as I do, others don't. And that's alright. In the end, if Savage leans this hard on the dance mechanics, it simply means that content isn't for me.

What I still find interesting is the assertation that it is impossible to create challenging Savage content without the overabundance of dance step mechanics. I'm not disagreeing, for all I know that could be true. Maybe it's true that it's impossible to tune a battle hard enough otherwise, and that would be an interesting point to debate.

I honestly hope that helps. You don't have to agree, all I hope is that you at least understand where I am coming from.

[Phileas]

I think the main reason that it is a big dance is for progression.

It is much easier to pin point a mistake and work on it than if it is on rng...in the end you would just work out the rng situations and counter those anyway eliminating the point of rng.

A dance becomes boring when things go on farm but in progression it is quite helpful especially on loong dances like v3s. A 11 min battle with rng mexhanics would do my head in.

[Sebazy]

I've said it before, and will say it again. This is my opinion. I am not asking for changes. I have said a number of times prior that I understand there are people that enjoy those dance step mechanics. I simply wanted to see what people thought. Some feel the same as I do, others don't. And that's alright. In the end, if Savage leans this hard on the dance mechanics, it simply means that content isn't for me.

You're getting the reaction you are because you're entirely basing your opinion on what are widely regarded as two of the weakest end game raid encounters seen in this game since launch. Imagine if I signed up to a motorbike forum claiming that 'I bought a Yamaha R125 and it left me thinking that all motorbikes are too slow, I watched youtube videos of R1s and R6s and it looked like more of the same so I won't bother with them.' I'd literally get eaten alive

The core issue with your earlier wishes is that there's only so far you can go relying on shielding, cleansing and raw HPs requirements. A4S was a very static encounter, it was also very highly tuned, yet it's also commonly viewed as a pretty awful and boring encounter for the most part. Simply throwing damage and little else worked for early coil turns, but encounters would be pretty boring by this stage if they still relied on that approach.

Secondly, vertical gear progression plays a big part in this too. You're coming at O2S at ~20-30 iLvls above what we had when the content hit, so yes, it's no surprise that the healing and DPS requirements seem so lenient. Is now a good time for me to remind you about that glorious Min iLvl button? If you want a proper old fashioned slugfest that's actually surprisingly challenging, try Min iLvl Titan HM and get back to me. It's gloriously enjoyable for a singular encounter but building a tier around that simply wouldn't work.

Pps you missed my earlier question. Have you done ShinryuEX yet? If not, why not? Or if so, what did you think of it?

Ta!

[Xerek]

You're getting the reaction you are because you're entirely basing your opinion on what are widely regarded as two of the weakest end game raid encounters seen in this game since launch. Imagine if I signed up to a motorbike forum claiming that I bought a Yamaha R125 and it left me thinking that all motorbikes are too slow, I watched youtube videos of R1s and R6s and it looked like more of the same so I won't bother with them. I'd literally get eaten alive

The core issue with your earlier wishes is that there's only so far you can go relying on shielding, cleansing and raw HPs requirements. A4S was a very static encounter, it was also very highly tuned, yet it's also commonly viewed as a pretty awful and boring encounter for the most part. Simply throwing damage and little else worked for early coil turns, but encounters would be pretty boring by this stage if they still relied on that approach.

Secondly, vertical gear progression plays a big part in this too. You're coming at O2S at ~20-30 iLvls above what we had when the content hit, so yes, it's no surprise that the healing and DPS requirements seem so lenient. Is now a good time for me to remind you about that glorious Min iLvl button? If you want a proper old fashioned slugfest that's actually surprisingly challenging, try Min iLvl Titan HM and get back to me. It's gloriously enjoyable for a singular encounter but building a tier around that simply wouldn't work.

Pps you missed my earlier question. Have you done ShinryuEX yet? If not, why not? Or if so, what did you think of it?

Ta!

Please see prior comment, repeated multiple times now, that states my views have nothing to do with difficulty! Consequently, how hard or easy O1S and O2S are, are irrelevent. How else can I spell this out? >.<

[KaivaC]

snip

I understand, but this is the point that I'm coming from -you have to try O3S before you can really merit what you've been posting. Because to be honest, O3S has some of the things that you are asking for. You made a comment about a tankbuster - precasting a shield. The O3S boss does that in the first 30 seconds, and even if the MT mitigates the damage, it still hurts them. You need to keep him healed. Again, I say that while O3S is a dance, you also have to be on top of your game as a healer. You have to execute your job as a healer...rather, everyone has to do their jobs to clear this fight. The OT has to grab adds, the healers have to keep everyone pretty much topped and rezzed throughout the whole fight (especially during the last phase where both healers will likely burn their MP with necessary burst heals), and DPS have to stay alive while outputting as much damage as possible. O3S is probably the kind of fight you have been asking for - well, minus the dance steps that you have to execute at the same time, but there is not a single point in this fight where you aren't healing, DPSing, rezzing, or applying dots.

All I suggest is that you actually try O3S first. Not a half-assed try either. Learn the fight for a couple days, give it a legitimate shot. Then post back here again. If your argument stays the same...well, at least you tried it and you have some merit in your argument. That's all I'm just trying to convey.

[Sebazy]

Please see prior comment, repeated multiple times now, that states my views have nothing to do with difficulty! Consequently, how hard or easy O1S and O2S are, are irrelevent. How else can I spell this out? >.<

Have you done ShinryuEX yet? Stop ducking the question

The core issue with your earlier wishes is that there's only so far you can go relying on shielding, cleansing and raw HPs requirements. A4S was a very static encounter, it was also very highly tuned, yet it's also commonly viewed as a pretty awful and boring encounter for the most part. Simply throwing damage and little else worked for early coil turns, but encounters would be pretty boring by this stage if they still relied on that approach.

Secondly, vertical gear progression plays a big part in this too. You're coming at O2S at ~20-30 iLvls above what we had when the content hit, so yes, it's no surprise that the healing and DPS requirements seem so lenient. Is now a good time for me to remind you about that glorious Min iLvl button? If you want a proper old fashioned slugfest that's actually surprisingly challenging, try Min iLvl Titan HM and get back to me. It's gloriously enjoyable for a singular encounter but building a tier around that simply wouldn't work.

Note the bolded bits there.

You want challenges that revolve around healer specific abilities rather than choreographed movement right? In my eyes, that's healing checks, shielding checks and cleansing. Both O1S and O2S have these (healing and shielding at least!), they are just tuned very low as you yourself (and pretty much the entire raiding community) stated from the get go. The bolded bits are where I've pointed out the very answer and perhaps even solution to your dilemma yet you choose to brush it off? I'd say we are very unlikely to see another raw healing/shielding encounter like Titan HM or T1 (Seriously, go try it at min iLvl) because thanks to the way this game is currently balanced, it'll either be far too easy and eaten alive even faster than O1S, or be an overtuned mathematical roadblock. There really is no in between with the way healers are setup at the moment.