So are we *ever* getting the planned list of Class/Ability changes?

[Betelgeuzah]

Not only that, but having your players test a patch after it has gone live is the absolute worst way to develop any MMO and it's a precedent that died back in 2004 when WOW came out. This is why PTR's have been created and why patch notes for any serious MMO are constantly discussed and revealed as early as possible.

Yes, but do you understand that there is no PTR for this game, no comprehensive stat calculation information and most importantly we have nothing to base the action change notes on even if they were comprehensive. Even the largest of MMO's tend to tweak their actions (not replace them) and only some at time, so you have something to compare the changes to. Plus, they can be actually tested on the test realm, and all stat calculations have been long since figured out.

We can not compare the changes to anything because no feature or mechanic currently exists in-game that we could use to make any informed assumptions. All we have is the action list with descriptions and stat mechanics we haven't figured out to make sense of any of it.

I will say it again. We can't provide any valuable feedback based on the information provided if we can't experience the changes by ourselves. Your "bu- bu- but in other games" speech really does not mean anything in the context of action change patch notes in FFXIV with the information we have available to us as of November 2011. Unless you think that they will suddenly spill the beans on stat calculations in the same post while announcing the opening of test realm the day after.

[Wolfie]

Based on what you said, you essentially stated WoW releases perfect patches which means there's no need for hotfixes, which means WoW should be free of hotfixes, as well as any MMORPG that was released after 2004, yet I'm pretty sure every MMO I've played since 2004 (WoW included) utilizes hotfix patching. Otherwise, it's not something that died out in 2004, players of any MMO are still the biggest "testers" when it comes to patches because players almost always find bugs and glitches that QA can miss.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I said that you should never let your players test a patch after it goes live, not that PTRs will produce perfect patches. You have your players test a patch on a separate server and work with them to iron out balance changes, design changes, and bugs that your own internal QA team has missed. You can never get a 100% guarantee that a patch will please everyone in terms of changes and being bug free, but using a PTR you roll out a much more robust and higher quality patch.

Hotfixes are small patches that are applied directly to live systems with no testing in order to fix a critical bug or issue. These will still exist with PTRs, but the amount of non-critical bugs and stupid design choices that your patch rolls out with is dramatically reduced.

[Ronik]

Um, you have no right actually. Delays happen. It's also going to be a huge list of changes that are being translated for EVERY region the game supports and they want it all to go up at the same time instead of JP>NA>EU, etc.

No, we DO have a right. We're going to be paying for an unfinished product as soon as a few weeks from now, and without us this game does NOT have a chance to make it to version 2.0. The only thing keeping many of us here is the promise of what the game might become, and if the dev team expects us to stick around/pay actual money to see the game eventually realize it's potential they need to start delivering on promises made to the playerbase in a timely manner.

And yes, I'm well aware that patch notes need to be translated. However, SE is far more aware than we are of how long that process takes and I'm sure includes it in their considerations when they say "Hey, we're releasing the patch notes next Tuesday!"

Fact is, the release of this information has been delayed and ignored multiple times at this point. If it's going to take until the end of November to release it, the dev team should've said "It'll be in your hands by the end of November". Delaying stuff constantly only builds mistrust between the playerbase and the devs, and since trust is the only thing keeping most of us here in the first place, it's definitely unacceptable.

[Airget]

It confuses me why people would make topics on this when the week isn't even over yet. Sure the patch notes on the repair system isn't all inriguing but it's nice to hear that the NPCs will finally be able to repair jewlery lol. As for the concept itself, the info last week gave us an idea of what they want to do in terms of how dynamic the changes would be. From there we can speculate what might change but overall it should make sense as to why they are taking their time to release the information and finalizing it.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post440696

As posted here it is commented that they are finalizing the information which was about a week ago so it is possible that we could see the information tomorrow but if not, then just wait. If they aren't releasing the information it's because they aren't 100% sure that's what they want each classes abilities and traits to be. Once the list is done they'll release so til then just wait it out a bit more, once it is released everyone can comment and rage on what they like or don't like about it lol.

[Betelgeuzah]

It confuses me why people would make topics on this when the week isn't even over yet.

"The week" was over 3 weeks ago.

[Jennestia]

"The week" was over 3 weeks ago.

Class reforms part 1 was posted on the 11th. The stuff they didn't post related directly to what's being rebalanced and shuffled around, which obviously means it will take more time to finalize in terms of presentation because they could write off all the changes, but find out that something wasn't properly tested or they flubbed on saving the data and have to retract their statement.

I think the problem with this whole situation is Yoshida saying he doesn't want to post info on anything unless he's absolutely sure, yet people complained about Tanaka posting info and things always end up being different or we got "lied to."

[MizoreShirayuki]

Anytime before December 15th could be classified as the "first" part of December since it's technically before "Mid Month." Businesses release a tentative schedule for a reason. If they know they can't release something by the first part of that schedule, they still have time to make the "deadline" due to the freedom such a schedule gives.

It'll get released when it's ready to be. Plenty of other good games out at the moment. You don't have to be playing FF14. I'd like to be playing 1.20 as much as everyone else, I just have other things to occupy my time until that day arrives.

[Betelgeuzah]

I think the problem with this whole situation is Yoshida saying he doesn't want to post info on anything unless he's absolutely sure, yet people complained about Tanaka posting info and things always end up being different or we got "lied to."

Well damn, I wish he made use of that philosophy when he mentioned posting the class change lists when 1.19 goes live.

Or when he said it would take them one more week to get the information prepared, which then translated to one week + 4 days of the second week (Nov. 11th), except we only got half of the information (which he didn't even mention during his earlier speech). Oh, and the information didn't even include the class change list, the list that we were promised was coming. Instead we got some general changes topic that, while nice, is not the class change list.

I think the problem with this whole situation is that your argument is as solid as the ice you're standing on. Trying to spin every criticism into some "oh, there is an issue I agree, but it's because of *insert some noble intention here* that the issue even exists" doesn't always work.

[Jennestia]

except we only got half of the information (which he didn't even mention during his earlier speech)..

Pretty sure it was stated by time the info was ready it was going to be broken into 2 parts.

[Betelgeuzah]

Pretty sure it was stated by time the info was ready it was going to be broken into 2 parts.

Yes, after we had waited "one week" and then some (which was said after a month of silence beyond the initial schedule) we got this statement and after this statement it took days to get the first part actually out there. The part that didn't include the action changes.