DPS is the job of DPS.

[Reynhart]

You do realize the Duty Finder does not list "slow" or "fast" as a requirement right? So they are equally not an established requirement.in DF. So why do you seem to think "speedrun" is an additional requirement, but "slow run" isn't?

Because there is no "slow" run. What isn't "speedrun" is just "run". What you could consider is people wanting "full" run, asking to kill every single mob. And if you specifically want a "full run" you'd also better use the party finder.

So these "higher requirements" are just things you personally pick and choose? Is there something in-game that says what are "higher requirements"? Does the DF explain what is a "higher requirement"?

The PF does, where you can set a higher required ilvl, restrict the jobs that can join, or set any comment for any additionnal constraint you decide as a leader such as "No 1st timers" or "lootmaster". And people who don't want to meet your requirements simply won't join your team.

It's not a rethorical question, I want a legit answer.

Stil lthe same answer, the Duty Finder works with the "lowest common denominator" rules. This is not the case with PF or RF.

[Lilseph]

Stil lthe same answer, the Duty Finder works with the "lowest common denominator" mindset. This is not the case with PF or RF.

But why? Why it has to work like that *according to you*? You're making it look like an unwritten rule, when that's not the case. As it is now, it seems to be matter of personal preference more than anything. I respectfully disagree with your idea of expectation, as I'd suggest to be open to either scenario upon queueing up. Sure, you can convince them to do otherwise, but in the end, that rule doesn't exist. You made that rule by yourself. Don't try to impose it on other players as if you had any authority, you're a player like them. It's what the majority wants, you can either negotiate, kick the conflicting parts (which will lead to a vote) or leave.

[Reynhart]

I respectfully disagree with your idea of expectation, as I'd suggest to be open to either scenario upon queueing up. Sure, you can convince them to do otherwise, but in the end, that rule doesn't exist.

Sure, we can discuss to find a consensus, but, if that consensus can't be found because people are too stubborn, you have to backup to an objective rule. The PF was specifically created to allow people to put additionnal requirements when recruiting, allowing explicit rules that every party member accepted when they joined. There are no such things for joining in the DF except language and minimum ilvl, so, people have no right to enforce them.

[Shurrikhan]

Because there is no "slow" run. What isn't "speedrun" is just "run". What you could consider is people wanting "full" run, asking to kill every single mob. And if you specifically want a "full run" you'd also better use the party finder.

Is there a single instance in this game in which a "full" run would be optional while still being at all worthwhile? There's AV first room, DH to first boss, DC to first boss, partial runs, but the only dungeons in the game I can think of in which a full run is not required to complete the dungeon are DH (2 pulls short of full), and AV (about 4 mob packs short of full).

I very frequently see people tossing up "slow run" PFs. And IS a setting specifically for it.

Stil lthe same answer, the Duty Finder works with the "lowest common denominator" rules. This is not the case with PF or RF.

No. It doesn't. It may be rule by the mean, median, or mode, but it is certainly not always the LCD unless the rest of the group is for whatever reason unwilling to kick in order to approach more common ground between that player majority.

It's merely majority rule. No more, no less.

[Miste]

Because there is no "slow" run. What isn't "speedrun" is just "run". What you could consider is people wanting "full" run, asking to kill every single mob. And if you specifically want a "full run" you'd also better use the party finder.

So....you are just arguing semantics now...that means nothing really and changes nothing for the point I made. All you did was change the words.

I can do that too easily enough...

You do realize the Duty Finder does not list "full run" or "speedrun" as a requirement right? So they are equally not an established requirement.in DF. So why do you seem to think "speedrun" is an additional requirement, but "full run" isn't?

Also to be fair there is "slow run" and "speedrun" when it comes to how the party is handling the pulls and not just if the party is doing optional side rooms. Multipulling is a speedrun mentality (along with skipping avoidable rooms), while "slow run" would be a group doing single pulls and with the optional addition of doing a "full run" as well by including side rooms/extra mobs.

The PF does, where you can set a higher required ilvl, restrict the jobs that can join, or set any comment for any additionnal constraint you decide as a leader such as "No 1st timers" or "lootmaster". And people who don't want to meet your requirements simply won't join your team.

There are options in PF for every type of group though. You can make the group for first timers only, or slow runs only, or anything you want so it isn't only for "higher requirements" and that would be obvious to most people who actually make PFs. Which again is why both sides have the option to use PF if they are 100% unwilling to compromise since in PF they can create the exact party they want be it slow run or fast run.

Stil lthe same answer, the Duty Finder works with the "lowest common denominator" rules. This is not the case with PF or RF.

No, the DF has no rules like that which you yourself even pointed out lol

As long as you match the Duty Finder expectation (min ilvl, language), you're in your right.

because that's how the Duty Finder works. The only restrictions you can set is language.

you have to backup to an objective rule. The PF was specifically created to allow people to put additionnal requirements when recruiting, allowing explicit rules that every party member accepted when they joined. There are no such things for joining in the DF except language and minimum ilvl, so, people have no right to enforce them.

I mean at this point you are destroying your own argument you do realize that? You are contradicting yourself.

So where is this "objective lowest common denominator" rules? Where in-game does it say that DF follows these rules? Who at SE said that those are the rules for DF?

If something is "objective" that means it is a "fact". So where is your proof that DF in-game has this "lowest common denominator" rules or where is the quote directly from SE saying that those rules are in place for DF?

[Awha]

Snip . . .

Why are you avoiding the point that the only standard or expectation that is placed on DF and roulette queue is that it is a random experience, and as a player you have no idea what kind of group you will get. Since the group make up is generated at random a individual players will or desire takes no part in it. PF is meant to remove the random nature of DF and roulette queue, be it for a speed run or to do a slower paced run.

Once again an individual player does not have the right the impose their preferences on the group, if your play style does not gel with the group simply leave said group and either create a PF, or try your luck and queue again. When a player tries to impose their desire on the group it only leads to harassment, which then has the potential to leave each member with a negative experience.

This goes for those that wish to try and force a speed run when the rest of the group is okay to take it slow, as much as it goes for people that wish the take things slow when the group clearly wants and is capable of doing a speed run. Your line of thinking will simply promote harassment and create negative experiences for players.

[Shurrikhan]

Well yeah but wasn't that my point? That there's something wrong with this community to be so focused on such things (to the point that it even occasionally shows up in lower-level dungeons)?

There absolutely is. I agree 100% in that regard, and I'd meant for my post to clearly agree with your own. (Clearly I failed.) As for anything outside that agreement, I'm just saying that XIV's game design itself very, very rarely pushes in any direction but that babying tunnel-vision. And it easily could, if it weren't so focused on being barebone or "streamlined", but it's as if they're almost philosophically opposed to allowing for that kind of depth (and make continual adjustments to filter it out, such as complete resistance to damage-broken CC in all content over 50, or the gradual increasing gap between tank and non-tank survivability).

And the funny, or abominable, thing, imo, is just how perfect lower-level dungeons otherwise would be for figuring out just how much one can directly contribute with any given toolkit. It allows people to build up conventions for unstated but understood target order or AoE vs. ST. You can figure out when, how, and why to DoT spread, to CC, to AoE. It actually has some of the few viable places in this game in which single-targeting down 3-4 enemies, one by one, via CC, outpaces AoE once you account for the added healer dps made available. And it given ample opportunity to thin out one's tank stance usage. And yet... "I'm the healer. I heal. That's it." <Proceeds to idle for 9 GCDs.> Learning opportunity wasted.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Sure, we can discuss to find a consensus, but, if that consensus can't be found because people are too stubborn, you have to backup to an objective rule. The PF was specifically created to allow people to put additionnal requirements when recruiting, allowing explicit rules that every party member accepted when they joined. There are no such things for joining in the DF except language and minimum ilvl, so, people have no right to enforce them.

Nor do you have any right to enforce your preferences. I can pull for the tank if I so choose. If you dislike it, your options are restricted to asking me in chat not to or kicking me. In the latter case, if the kick were denied, the majority has spoken. Now you either have to accept it or leave yourself. DF exists solely to create an easy and constantly available option for running content. How we approach it is entirely up to the 4-8 individuals.

[Awha]

Snip . . .

I do agree that PF is meant remove the variables that come with DF, though I do think as players we should go simply with the vote option a means of showing the consensus of the group. I get what you are saying, I simply wish tank and healers that prefer things a certain way spoke up at the start instead keeping to themselves, if tank and healers that prefer slower runs mention it at the start I do think most people would be understanding, and if they are not the player that made the request should not hold the group hostage and force the group to kick them, they simply should live on their on accord or adapt to the situation if it is solely a play style issue and not gear one.

Though I do not agree with trying see what the consensus is on either side of spectrum by forcing a situation that may lead to a kick. I know it is a silly notion, but I simply do not understand why people on either side try to force their preferred play style in a random situation leaving the only recourse forced removal from the group.

On the whole I do agree with your point, the collective get to decide the pace. I simply wish people would not try to test the waters and letting the vote kick option be the deciding factor.

I have never used the vote kick option before do you have to be the party leader to initiate or can anyone do it? Either way it sucks putting players be it one person or the whole group through a negative experience simply to allow the vote kick option to the deciding factor. Wish more people would be vocal and speak up at the start.

This morning I joined a group asked if the group was okay with smaller pulls, since my gear is pretty booboo. They said nah, so I just left and told them to have a nice day. I was not going to try and force smaller pulls or run the risk of them trying to force larger pulls on me. That is how these situations should be handled not by testing the waters and seeing which wins out the vote kick or people simply being indifferent and just going with the vote even though they would prefer a different type of run.

I just do not agree with the whole you do not like then kick me mindset, may has misunderstood your point, but that is what I got. Be it for either side of the spectrum when it comes to fast or slow runs, seems selfish to a degree in my eyes. If that is not what you meant then please disregard the whole post.

[Reynhart]

I do agree that PF is meant remove the variables that come with DF, though I do think as players we should go simply with the vote option a means of showing the consensus of the group.

If the tank (or the healer) is not geared enough to survive a big pull, it doesn't matter that the three others are adamant on doing a speedrun.
If the DPS can't AoE efficiently (Because, yes, low level dungeons still exist..and MNK), forcing a speedrun is not saving any time and only puts more burden on healers by removing downtimes.

I can pull for the tank if I so choose. If you dislike it, your options are restricted to asking me in chat not to or kicking me

Enjoy your death if you do it on purpose. And good job wasting your own time because you don't want to waste your own time following the tank's pace.