Red Mage could use some help.

[Dualgunner]

Oops!

Totally thought red mage got verraise earlier. Sorry everyone.

*abashed*

Off topic: Isn't my hat great, Dualgunner?

I wish I could say you were the only one. I've had a few people yell at me for not raising people in moogle mog, though thankfully its not a common occurrence. And I love the evenstar hat. Leveled black mage back in 2.x just to wear it ^_^

[Kohdo]

Word of warning, I am NOT a RDM (honestly find the job to be as dull as dirt) but I figure I'd throw out some randon idea that popped in my head to see if it would go anywhere.

Verholy - Reduces damage enemy deals by 5% for 10 seconds
Verflare - Increases magic vulnerability of enemy by 5% for 10 seconds

I'm aware this would make Verholy hardly ever used again since the whole "More Damage" mentality is pretty much always the way to go but I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than me could find a reason to justify Verholy and it's damage reduction use. If nothing else, it would give RDM more damage regardless.

Great idea, but why not;
Verholy/Verflare - Reduces damage enemy deals by x% for 10 seconds
- Increases magic vulnerability of enemy by x% for 10 seconds

Both get a decent buff and are therefore both still viable to use.

[Shurrikhan]

Won't be surprised if RDM gets some kind of Vernochian styled mechanic in 5.0. RDM now reminds me a lot of how simple BLM was in 2.x.

Vernochian. It's what Verangels speak. You pop it after your first mana-ed spell and don't let it drop or consequences. Also almost impossible to drop, unless you try to do that one neat spellflow you could do before.

Idk, in a way it just shocks me that anyone looked at that system, even on paper, and felt that it could feel at all deep. There were so many other avenues to go with other than arbitrary categories, too, be it the spellsword aspect or giving each element or element side their own benefits that synergize in potentially macrorotational-nuanced ways.

As far as overall balance for RDM goes, I mostly just wish they had a mechanic that would somehow come at cost of some of their ability to perform other supportive progression functions, be it by extensive mana cost or dealing damage by depleting a portion of current mana (for added damage per mana), that also cut into their mobility a bit. Essentially, I want a way for them to make themselves a bit more normal, more selfish, once the fight no longer has a need for their (until then far more useful) unique support kit.

And ideally, I'd love for that to be done in combination with those deeper mechanics. Let elements build up transferable buffs; your potency range is below average, but with all the buffs at once, the multipliers are sufficient to keep your competitive, but more often your largest strength is that you can pass off those buffs rotationally or by emergency to your group or specific members.

[Dualgunner]

Sort of makes me think of what I originally thought RDM would be doing: using the melee combo as a generator and the spells as spenders. I think a big cause of RDM's current depth is the fact we have one spender, and everything else is a generator.

[Maero]

Casters as example it is competition, granted not fierce at the moment because smn is so much better then the other 2. But it comes down to spots in groups especially when some jobs get left out. (yes i am aware at one point smn got left out)
SE are clueless how to balance jobs out.

[Tzain]

Sort of makes me think of what I originally thought RDM would be doing: using the melee combo as a generator and the spells as spenders. I think a big cause of RDM's current depth is the fact we have one spender, and everything else is a generator.

Man, I thought I was the only one who wondered about that!
I mean, if you look at the ability progression and the lore it reinforces the idea of going 'melee -> Caster -> melee' rather than 'caster -> melee -> Caster'.
I still think that SE's way of 'balancing' red mage dps is going to be related to the frequency with which we do our melee combo ('Burst type damage playstyle'). Increased Frequency = more damage, decreased frequency = less damage. Right now, given that the job is so young, It's my honest belief that they are opting to keep it on the 'low side' so that any 'balancing' will be embraced as a buff.

That being said, having us as melee->caster would put another body in melee range, which is a bit crowded. So I'm ok with our default being a spell slinger from a mechanics/balance perspective. It just feels unbalanced because you spend too much time in 'slinger' mode compared to the 'sword' phase.
In my overly simplistic view, Corps-a-Corps is the limiting factor at 40 seconds. In theory we should be able to generate enough W/B to do the full melee combo (Corps, melee combo, displacement,ver-finisher) each time corps comes off cooldown.
Also, I'd like to see Embolden's mechanic get inverted, so that it becomes more powerful during it's duration instead of less powerful since the burst damage combo is so 'back-loaded'.

[basketofseals]

Sort of makes me think of what I originally thought RDM would be doing: using the melee combo as a generator and the spells as spenders. I think a big cause of RDM's current depth is the fact we have one spender, and everything else is a generator.

Yeah it's really weird how "sword out" stance is the default when RDM casts for the majority of its gameplay.

[Flarestar]

The problem with buffing RDM is the same as it's always been. RDM is insanely easy to play compared to literally every other dps class. At the top end of gameplay, yeah, it's outperformed substantially (8-10%) by a few of the other dps, and moderately (3-5%) by most of the rest. That's not actually hugely out of balance.

However, that also really only applies to a fairly small portion of the playerbase. For the majority of the playerbase, a substantial buff to RDM would make them overwhelmingly better than the rest of the dps simply due to ease of play. It's already relatively common to see RDMs topping the chart in the average PUG due to that factor alone. Personally I'd like to see a buff, but I can't really see it happening to any serious degree.

[Tzain]

The problem with buffing RDM is the same as it's always been. RDM is insanely easy to play compared to literally every other dps class. At the top end of gameplay, yeah, it's outperformed substantially (8-10%) by a few of the other dps, and moderately (3-5%) by most of the rest. That's not actually hugely out of balance.

However, that also really only applies to a fairly small portion of the playerbase. For the majority of the playerbase, a substantial buff to RDM would make them overwhelmingly better than the rest of the dps simply due to ease of play. It's already relatively common to see RDMs topping the chart in the average PUG due to that factor alone. Personally I'd like to see a buff, but I can't really see it happening to any serious degree.

I'd be cautious looking at 'ease of play' when comparing Red Mage to other classes.
First, it's a "young" job. Which means it has the level of 'complexity' of a level 50 class. It hasn't had additional mechanics slapped onto it yet with expansions but still has to be level 70. The result is bound to be a 'simplistic style', but if you play a Black Mage at 50 it's not all that different from a complexity point.
Secondly, I think they're aiming for a bit of a 'external' playstyle. I tend to consider playstyles 'internal' when you're focused on your rotation, maintaining buffs, etc. Rather than focusing on reaction gameplay like procs, or supporting/healing party members which I call 'External' gameplay.
Healers are the classic example of 'External Focus'. The players focus is primarily on the group, that focus is like flexing a muscle. They have very simple damage capabilities because doing damage is like relaxing that Focus muscle for them. If you bounce a player too much between External focus and internal focus, you end up exhausting them mentally and many will find the effect jarring or 'unfun' without the ability to articulate why.
I think this is why Red Mage has the style it has. The external focus is related to their ver-cure and ver-raise utility, but their Damage mechanism, being reactionary Proc based, is external as well. The 'focus unflex' is during the melee combo, which is very linear.
Between the 'young-ness' and the 'external focus' Red Mage can be seen as a very simplistic job, I agree. But I think that's going to change quickly as the 'external focus' of their toolkit gets expanded in further updates.
What I doubt ever seeing though, is the addition of 'internal focus' gameplay of adding Rotations or Buff maintenance or Damage over Time.

[Shurrikhan]

Man, I thought I was the only one who wondered about that!
I mean, if you look at the ability progression and the lore it reinforces the idea of going 'melee -> Caster -> melee' rather than 'caster -> melee -> Caster'.
I still think that SE's way of 'balancing' red mage dps is going to be related to the frequency with which we do our melee combo ('Burst type damage playstyle'). Increased Frequency = more damage, decreased frequency = less damage. Right now, given that the job is so young, It's my honest belief that they are opting to keep it on the 'low side' so that any 'balancing' will be embraced as a buff.

That being said, having us as melee->caster would put another body in melee range, which is a bit crowded. So I'm ok with our default being a spell slinger from a mechanics/balance perspective. It just feels unbalanced because you spend too much time in 'slinger' mode compared to the 'sword' phase.
In my overly simplistic view, Corps-a-Corps is the limiting factor at 40 seconds. In theory we should be able to generate enough W/B to do the full melee combo (Corps, melee combo, displacement,ver-finisher) each time corps comes off cooldown.
Also, I'd like to see Embolden's mechanic get inverted, so that it becomes more powerful during it's duration instead of less powerful since the burst damage combo is so 'back-loaded'.

Personally, I usually just Corps-a-Corps and Displacement on CD for the free oGCD damage, and try to ensure they've just been used before Manafication's refresh to each, so they've never really struck me as necessary book-ends to the melee combo. The main oddity to me is just that it feels like it might as well all just be Flare or any other ranged finisher, except that we're spending 1.8 GCDs prior via instant melee range skills prior. As both resource generation and spenders, especially, are so one-dimensional, nothing about it feels different or even like it needs the sword, even when slashing people with it. It just feels ornamental.