input delay kills the game

[NephthysVasudan]

<snip>

Before you start yammering away at "its not true blah blah your wrong" consider the following facts:

1: I'm a IT Professional with 20+ years of experience in a wide variety of computer issues ranging from computer desktops to servers.
2: I work at a Datacenter where I'm responsible for building servers/management at maintenance of a 3000+ Server facility.
3: I troubleshoot/diagnose hardware and networking issues.
4: I sit on a 30 MEGABYTE (not bit...BYTE) Backbone (thats 30MB/s) which is tied into the greater Seattle regional internet backbone here (Westin)
5: I'm 2 network hops from SE's front door....less than 30ms ping. That's damn fast as its gonna get.

Now that you have the facts..allow me to share with you what I've observed.
At home I have a reasonably current gaming rig - but the internet connection is not as good as the one at the datacenter....its a fiber yes - but id say 10-15Mb/s (that's bits...not bytes) - more than adequate for FFXIV.

Generally I don't see anything like what your describing...unless there's latency off the server.
Now here at my work place? I see it ALL THE DAMN TIME. I make due.

Explain that!
I can....its two things.
Server Lag (With the obvious reasons attached - not all the time) - Like when I'm taking on Ixion with 75-90 people - its stupid insane - but only in those specific conditions!
Or the rig sitting here which has a 10-15 year old graphics card and a crappy AMD 3core? (whatever the hell it is) CPU I salvaged from a server. I blame my old gaming rig here at work :P Obviously. it sure as hell aint the connection and its not SE (Cause at home I don't see this AT ALL :P )

Again..if your paying attention - server lag is only a good excuse if the conditions are right. Otherwise I blame my computer.

Whats the point?
Your lagging seriously bad - and your computer has a problem.

This isn't the games fault.
Granted the servers have been ddosd' 16 different ways from Christmas....but its all you...I suggest you look elsewhere for your rant.

GL HF.

[RylaBee]

Nephthys

In my opinion, if you play several different online games on the SAME rig and the SAME connection and only one of them is constantly experiencing significant delays in responsivnes
, then the ONLY way this in problem on player's side is:
1) said game is hardware-wise clearly more demanding than his other games (is FFXIV in your opinion significantly more HW demanding then say SWTOR, TERA, Overwatch, Secret World ??)
2) game servers are - unlike for your other games - much "farther" for you (this is discutable - are for example EU FFXIV servers not located in EU ??)

Appreciate if you have any thoughts on 1) or 2)

[NephthysVasudan]

1:You'd be surprised how utterly stupid windows can get (as most PC users are on windows) when it comes to day to day use/gaming.
That and older hardware. - And not all games are the same - this is a major myth in terms of game A being lag free and game B and game C so therefore FFXIV is bad! - NOPE. Each game is a different personality. Granted - many share the same engine/platform - but they all use different servers/different designs/different methodologies. EVE Online for example is likely the most efficient game on the planet in terms of client vs server side latency issues. - And they have to be - when you enter a star system and you have 3000 players in one place - your going to need all the speed you can get. (And even the servers have to use something called "Time dilation" to keep the lag to a minimum (1 second == 30 seconds for example). Literally slowing the game down so everyone can get their I/O commands in. The heaviest aspect of EVE Online is the graphics - everything else is server side.
FFXIV seems to use an entirely different system - more client side than server side...as evidenced by the files I have to push/pull to go between my rigs. But I can't say that for sure.


bottom line - this game requires an efficient rig - and if your system is not there/like an older graphics card? While good - just not that fast? You WILL encounter weird situations - but I don't think the OP is telling all the facts. I'd say he's ranting over something that just started happening.

As for FFXIV - Id say it's not nearly as demanding as say EVE Online....but there is obviously a lot overhead when it comes to server communication traffic. I don't have a packet sniffer handy to tell you - and I would strongly advise you don't do that >.>;;;; - but its rather obvious when your tackling Ixion for example.

2: I'm obviously on the NA Servers (Seattle WA is my regional location) - The funny thing is Adamantoise when traced is geo-ip'd in the Sacramento region..yet my network path is going through a datacenter belonging to SE in the Seattle area....obviously a VPN/Prxoy tunnel between SE's datacenters throughout the west coast - but as its a dedicated pipeline for their traffic...latency is a non-issue. - If he's playing on a server outside his country - then yeah..your going to have serious issues...some can get away with it..some cant. ideally a ping you want for gaming is less than 150ms (lower the number the faster (1000ms = 1 Second - note what the OP said about the delay he observed? Funny that!) - Anything higher and your going to see weird things.

As for demanding hardware wise? Cant say for sure as I've not played those games - best guess - don't know! FFXIV at times looks less complex - and other days its more complex in graphics. I can say that you need a good setup if your going to run max settings. Also keep in mind FPS's are more demanding on timing and processing. So its Apple Vs Orange.

That said MMO's like FFXIV are not very dependent on pings as opposed to say a first person shooter. - But it will impact you in major events like dungeons/raids/etc. the higher the population count in your immedate "instance/area" - the worse your going to see the effects.

That all aside - my whole point is you could have the best damn connection on the planet....but if your hardware is not up to snuff or your OS is overloaded with garbage (and you'd be surprised how many people think they got this nailed when they are no where near that level of cleanliness) - your going to see this sort of problem (input delay). there's just not enough info honestly.

And like everyone else - I've not see nor heard of this problem with everyone else. Which is why I blame the hardware....my work rig is not nearly as nice as my gaming rig...one of these days ill drag my tower here and try it out - likely will find that the connection is rock solid and there's no delays...but I don't like risking my hardware ^_^;.

I've seen some weird latency spikes on my home connection - but it was within reasonable expectations (high population count etc). Its especially tricky when doing cross world connections - but not seen anything seriously bad yet.

There are just too many questions - is he torrenting? is he using foolish apps like limewire? (is that even still a thing?) - is he watching movies? streaming? how many people on the same connection? It all adds up and you'd be surprised how stupidly taxed it gets. Especially if someone has an infected machine on the same network blowing your bandwidth out the window. ti gets very complex at that point. The littlest things can mess up your FFXIV gaming experience.

EDIT: PSN users - Playstation has their own network/layout - I can't tell you for certain what its like or how efficient is - I cant tell you however its not known for being that great. Yes it works - but I've known too many people complain about the weirdest things. Lets be frank - how many times have we seen PSN notices from SE? I'll stop there. As for games on playstation - they tend to be consistent but some games still use their own servers. Its less a problem as they are strictly enforced to a standard of coding/design/expectations. PC however - the sky isn't the limit - everyone does their machines differently. FFXIV being a cross-platform gaming environment is very different as well - Most games DO NOT permit cross platform - by being cross platform - they add a whole new level of complications to network issues. This is something else to keep in mind. After all - PC's are subject to infections/problems - Playstation is a gaming console - therefore - that issue is a bare minimum - if at all.

[RylaBee]

And like everyone else - I've not see nor heard of this problem with everyone else.

Number of people are commenting on this issue, would not assume to speak for everybody.

Personaly I see it too, but as others have mentioned its mostly managable by adjusting your expectations and automaticaly assuming things you see on screen are already ~0.5-0.7 seconds late compared to the servers.
This seems more pronounced in FFXIV as opposed to my other online-gaming experience.

[NephthysVasudan]

Well if this is a RECENT thing - keep in mind Comcast/Level 3/ various Internet backbones have been attacked frequently as of lately...

This is bound to make things iffy.

Right now? I dont see it....only here at work.

And even then id say its not the game...at least not yet.
He's speaking in terms of long term....not recent.

[Squintina]

snip

Ok I experience this lag and I have a great machine and a great connection. No 10Mbps here and I can easily run more graphically demanding games than this one. No other game ever has this. I don't run anything else on the machine most of the time.

It's a really really small lag, you probably don't notice it because you got used to it or just because you're better at dodging (can't notice it in AOEs if you're always more than 1 second safe). I can go to a dead area with no one else and still get it if I actually try.

It's not recent, it's been there the entire time I've been back - which is several months, and I remember it existing when I played 3 years ago. Yes it's worse during server issues but that's well, obviously, server issues.
What's being referred to is a constant really small delay that typically goes unnoticed unless you literally just got by a dodge and still got attacked (or like me, noticed it while casting heals because it somehow lets me walk off when my cast isn't done and not interrupt me).

It's really easy to test, do a cast, walk off when it has 0.7 seconds left, it'll still do the cast instead of interrupting.

Fight a monster with aoe, try to time it to walk off just before the ground marker ends.

It's a really really small lag, less than 1 second. Newer people, who might be less used to dodging in this game, are more likely to notice it.

[NephthysVasudan]

LOL

That's what I call a glitch/bug...not lag.

I've seen that since day one. I abuse it...frequently.
Now what really gets me torn up is when I get a telegraph....and I move....and I still get hit even though im clearly outside the telegrahed area.

My mentor explained to me that If I start casting and I wait until the 0.7-0.3 seconds and start moving - the game will ignore the fact I moved and hit me with the damage.
There are days it wont hit me.

Honestly I wouldn't call this lag....I'd call it game mechanics not quite being in synch with you or some other thing.

The lag I speak of is when the timer starts skipping/glitching out/delaying very long/jittering (hard to describe) - log messages stack upwards of 2 to 3 minutes and dump on you like a avalanche.

Damage not catching up to you or vice versa...etc..etc..

And yes its all things you can adapt too...its call exaggerated moving. You move further...you do things sooner rather than later...etc.

not sure if all of the above made sense. - Is it game breaking? Hell no....its just the nature of the game is what I call it (the 0.7 thing)
In truth - and lets be honest - the spell should "fail/interrupt" if you move any time before ~0 seconds (obviously ignoring insta-casts)...end of discussion. So for anyone to complain about this? should just shut up and play the game ^_^ - For it to be a "thing" at 0.7 is a mixed blessing/curse.

[Squintina]

LOL

That's what I call a glitch/bug...not lag.

Ok I called it lag but the OP called it a delay, which is what I meant and I just misspoke, and it's not just in casts done by the user but also in the group markers.
Like I said for people who are less skilled at the game and just got out of a ground marker and thinking "yes I made it", finding themselves suddenly afflicted by an attack they dodged is certainly a big bummer.

And while people do learn to adapt, the point is that we shouldn't have to because other games don't do that.

[NephthysVasudan]

In truth i call it "Battle lag" - but there are many names for it.

So in this conext - id say a delay is appropriate.

In all fairness - for a system that's handling upwards 8 to 24 people doing damange/buffing/debuffing/receiving damage - and handling YOU a the same time - pretty dam impressive for a system.

For it to have a slight de-synch of 0.5-0.7 seconds? That's pretty damn close.
I could tolerate that.

It's not something i see very often on my home machine however. nor do I see it pronounced on the work rig here when with others. - Course im not going to do raids/dungeons while at work as my job may call me away to do things abruptly...but when i did get in - its more the machine than the game to me.

and I concur - this game has you learning how to "DDR" (dance dance reveloution) alot....

Step to the right - step to the left - do a 180 - do the chicken dan.....wait a second....

[Squintina]

In truth i call it "Battle lag" - but there are many names for it.

So in this conext - id say a delay is appropriate.

In all fairness - for a system that's handling upwards 8 to 24 people doing damange/buffing/debuffing/receiving damage - and handling YOU a the same time - pretty dam impressive for a system.

For it to have a slight de-synch of 0.5-0.7 seconds? That's pretty damn close.
I could tolerate that.

I can replicate this when I go by myself in a dead area and just heal myself all by myself. It's not about having a lot of people and is therefore not a good excuse.
And honestly why are you so against them looking into this? Worst that happens is they decide not to bother fixing it.

It's a bug that punishes people that successfully, but just barely, dodged an attack. It rewarding some other players by allowing them to pre-move (which can also be a curse if someone actually wanted to interrupt their own cast at the last second) doesn't change that it punishes others who played as the game told them to.