It's past time, Yoshi-P...

[Kallera]

If it is the mob's fault, is it not also the devs' fault for making it that way? Isn't it their fault when they said that they would fix the combat system?

[Tridus]

That quote is absolute bullshit for 90% of all roullete pugs, the tank takes way too much damage especially on big pulls for any of that crap to be true. If he had to heal THAT little he's either way overgeared or the tank was way above average.

No, that's not at all unheard of for that dungeon. I do roulette dungeons all the time and don't have a static. Results vary between groups and dungeons, but that number is entirely reproducable in that dungeon.

It's not even the most absurd example. Looking at you, O2N. There's a fight where Regen and Eos (if it's a WHM/SCH team) are more than sufficient to heal the tank the entire run. The ONLY time I need to cast any other heal is when the party takes damage, all of which is telegraphed, and most of which is avoidable. With a group that avoids stuff (which in DF is common these days), I can go for absurdly long periods of time where the only healing I'm doing is "put Regen back up". That's one GCD every 21 seconds, which is even less than 17% uptime. Sure, at some point I'll need to fire off an Assize and probably get an Indom from the other healer, but that's it, and those don't burn a GCD.

The rest of the time, what am I doing? I'm either using the buttons available to me to help the group (Stone and Aero), or I'm doing /playdead.

Sure, other dungeons require more healing. When I get a "pull to the wall" tank in Ala Mhigo, I'm doing a lot more healing than that. But it's never close to the only thing I'm doing, and if they did cautious pulls I'd barely be healing at all. That's the core issue here: tanks have to do big pulls before they're threatened at that level of content, even when they don't massively outgear it. The question isn't "should healers be DPSing?", because the answer to that is yes, unless they feel like standing around eating popcorn.

The question is really "should the game be designed such that healers have so much healing downtime?"

[Riardon]

There is no problem when Tanks and Healers can contribute to the DPS when they can. It makes it more fun and less boring. Tanking is already boring as it is. Run in front press 2 buttons and stand still until mobs die. Healing on non demanding situations is also boring. The problem is when people are obsessed with DPS meta and start harassing others. I've seen some people do it on normal dungeons.

[Teinixi]

But it is. That's how the game is designed.

The way I understood it, that's what he doesn't like, and I kind of agree. Being a good healer just makes you a boring one-button DPS that sometimes has to lose GCDs to heal. You can only cast stone so many times before you start hating life.

[Tridus]

And its not Yoshi P's fault...its the stupid mob (you know who you are).

It's not the lead on the game's fault that the game leaves healers with so much idle time that they fill it with DPS? It's the fault of the "mob" for thinking that spending half of a fight standing around doing nothing while everyone else works to clear the encounter is suboptimal gameplay?

That's an interesting viewpoint.

Tanks are supposed to Tank - and when I say Tank - that means pull aggro - hold aggro - End of discusison.

Oh good, that means I can spam Flash 6 or 7 times then eat popcorn for the rest of the encounter. By your standard, I don't even have to try to mitigate damage. Score!

Healers are supposed to Heal - not #%@#% pull aggro (anyone who does this should be shot)
DPS is to DPS - again...not pull aggro.

Pretty sure nobody advocated in favor of pulling aggro...

Now...that said. Tanks can do a fair bit of DPS...but this is a bonus...a secondary goal no more no less. UNLESS - the situation calls for it...as in extreme/savage/ultimate's with a well coordinated party. Of course extra Tanks also permit this. Assuming the main tank is doing his job.

Which is pretty much what the "mob" says. I haven't seen a whole lot of people saying that tanks should be putting DPS first, only that they should be trying to do it once they have aggro secured.

Healers should ALSO contribute DPS - but that is again...a secondary task...if the party is doing well - they should be DPS'ing - but only to the point of not compromising their healing job. Too many healers go stupid in this area and end up running out of mana. Cooldowns be damned - mana is life - don't mess that up.

... so you're agreeing with the mob?

DPS'ers should avoid AOE/Damage zones/and DPS - If they can do this much - they will be fine.

Hopefully they can do more than that. There's really nothing helpful about me having to hardcast Raise because three other DPS decided to stand in the fire and the Red Mage doesn't think its his job (despite being the best in the game at it).

Now getting kicked/harassed/yelled at/judged by the oh so ever loving "logs" - you can bet ill be reporting your ass and you will NOT escape the GM's wrath.

Thankfully I've not encountered this aside from a mentor being mouthy and a DPS'er refusing to do his job in a dungeon because the tank didn't pull the way he wanted it.

... I'm just confused now. This thread is about if there should be so much healing downtime that healers can spend over half the fight DPSing as a game design issue. What are you talking about?

But I for one play the game as its designed...and i do this for fun.
SE doesn't care about what anyone does unless you inhibit or destroy the experience with your opinionated elitist mindset.

The game as designed says that healers should be DPSing, unless you believe that standing around for up to 83% of the fight doing nothing is "by design", when all those DPS buttons are sitting there waiting to be used.

So you appear to be agreeing with the mob again, although I guess now we're the elitist mob?

But this is a MOB problem...the community at large. Not SE. People abuse/exploit the system as they see fit. Want to do something about it? Change your attitude and mindset....teach others....share....you just might fix the issue.

How is using my abilities the way they're designed to help clear content "abuse"? If SE doesn't want me to cast Stone in raids, they can very easily ensure I don't do that. Instead, they went the opposite route and made it EASIER in Stormblood for me to use it.

What does that tell you?

[Tridus]

Not a full solution, but what if SE were to tighten iLvl caps? Using Expert, for example. Ala Mhigo was rough my first time in my i290 gear, as was Shinryu normal. Now I can stomp both with impunity. While some of that can be attributed to experience, I have to think my i338 gear has a weeeee bit to do with it.

So I wonder, if there was a tighter iLvl limit, would it help make it feel more chalenging?

Ala Mhigo already caps at 310, and you're stomping it there. That's not a huge uptick from 290. It would make it harder to cap it at 290, but it'd also remove any sense of progression.

The main reason why it's gotten easier is people know what to expect in it now, whereas we were all figuring it out early on. Rabanastre is showing the same kind of curve on it, where it started off as a nightmare fuel gong show but is quickly getting smoother as familiarity goes up.

[Maero]

I rarely have ever seen complaints against anyone while running dungeons, so dunno :/

[Nora_of_Mira]

If OP hasn't abandoned this thread:

It will never happen unless they increase the bottom level difficulty of casual content (roulettes). You can literally be half asleep in these things and still clear. If you separate players into 2 groups, 1) I dont have to try hard, i want it to be easy, 2) I want to try hard all the time, and combine them in the same content: you're gonna have this discussion forever.

to try-hards like me, its inexcusable that you don't try and DPS as much as you can.
to casuals, its inexcusable to ask for more than what is minimally required to clear content.

[RiyahArp]

Will every expert roulette only require 17% healing? No, but Taika didn't say that, the point was made that this one did. Maybe that Savage prog BLM tipped the scales with great DPS. Maybe the WAR could have been more conservative in his pulls to require even less healing. The point is not that every expert roulette requires 17% healing uptime but rather that if a dungeon can be completed at 17% then it seems insane to argue any healer doesn't have the time to throw in some DPS.

That level of DPS is mostly found on bosses, who hit tanks ridiculously soft. You're not doing 17% healing on trash if the tank is pulling respectably in Stormblood. Trash actually hits much worse in terms of raw damage than bosses, which is a huge problem for this game. Bosses hit so weakly that your healer can dps nonstop and maintain that level of uptime easily. This is why i dislike parsers, numbers alone don't tell the whole story.

[Taika]

This is why i dislike parsers, numbers alone don't tell the whole story.

That's not very logical: wouldn't parsing the incoming damage of current SB dungeons and separating the bosses from the trash back up exactly what you were saying: trash hits harder now, bosses still not so much?