The state of SAM, BLM, and MNK is disappointing. "Selfish" isn't viable in this game.

[Greywolfamakir]

I bought Stormblood just for Samurai, I love it, its pretty fun for me, and i enjoy raid too, now if i want to raid Ultimate i have to play Nin or DRG...Sam is totally out of Ultimate...i have 2 options if i want to keep playing Samurai, leave the game or leave ultimate...

Thank you SE for make Ninja mandatory in raid...

[Cynfael]

And Black Mages are uniquely able to use Mana Shift without any detriment, which is a good healer support ability.

Largely irrelevant. Jobs these days are not resource-starved like SMN was throughout 2.x; also, BRD/MCH Refresh has no downside, unlike old MB.

To state that BLM is the best caster of a niche utility that has a long recast timer and is shared with two other casters who do it just fine is faint praise indeed.

Speaking as a healer main, I tend to forget Mana Shift is a thing unless I’ve had to scrape up multiple corpses in rapid succession. I just don’t need it under usual circumstances.

[zuzu-bq]

And Black Mages are uniquely able to use Mana Shift without any detriment, which is a good healer support ability.

I'm sorry but, BLM is the worst caster to use mana shift. SMN and RDM can do it to no detriment at almost any given time while BLM needs specific moments of their rotation to do so. The only advantage BLM has with Shift is giving MP right after they are raised.
Bringing SAM for the slashing is such a terrible idea the moment you realize that for them to apply slashing early is a massive personal damage loss defeating the purpose of being a selfish class.
Brotherhood only works for physical dps making it ridiculously weaker than most of the other party buffs since one or two of the tanks will always have magical attacks, and it will never benefit healers.
The discussion is not even about meta. It's that pure dps jobs only serve to bring a powerhouse of independent damage and they don't do that. So they basically bring nothing.
MNK's main issue on Heavensward was just enmity. Almost everything else was fine, the havoc over them was mostly unfounded and only really came to be on Creator because of the top speedrunning group's name, having a caster was actually worse for rdps than having a Monk.

On the chat of viability that RiyahArp is mixing with balancement. Jobs are not balanced, but yes all jobs are viable. But this game is made of group effort encounters. You'll be frowned be playing a class that can considerably hold the party back by simply being that class. Of course that varies on player skill, team objectives and a few other factors but the idea of balancement is make no job to be too strong and no job to be too weak. At the moment DRG and NIN are too strong and make SAM and MNK look like they're straight bad picks. While BLM is just objectively bad in everything, exepct for the situation I noted at the first lines of my post. Which is not something people will want to pick you for.

[SpeckledBurd]

MNK's main issue on Heavensward was just enmity. Almost everything else was fine, the havoc over them was mostly unfounded and only really came to be on Creator because of the top speedrunning group's name, having a caster was actually worse for rdps than having a Monk.

Sorry but that's just flat out wrong. It never had the massive personal DPS that Samurai has now, it was weaker in personal numbers than DRG on launch and it was always within spitting distance of both it and Ninja. It's TP sustain was the worst of any job and Purification did nothing to help because it both it existing instead of the devs just improving Monk's TP costs (which they literally did for Ninja by 3.2, while they left Monk complaining about it for the entire expansion) and it being tied to the Chakras were both dumbass design decisions. It also was by and far the worst choice of any job sheerly because it's punished by mechanics more than any job and because of Perfect Balance's Cooldown. Just to list off a few fights that grossly screwed Monk, A6S's space between each robot, A7S's Jails, A11S's Active Time Maneuvers (which was even worse on Monk if you phase skipped), and A12S's Time Gates all disproportionately hit Monk because of Greased Lightning.

The only problem that isn't still a problem is TP sustain because no one has sustain issues anymore, but that has just compounded the issue of Purification being useless outside of unbelievably long AOE situations that rarely even arise in dungeons. Our raid DPS still isn't particularly greater than a DRG or Ninja's even when you factor in Brotherhood, in fact I'm reasonably sure in terms of overall raid contribution an equally skilled Samurai will outdo a Monk, (Though granted personal/raid DPS disparity is an issue for Samurai and Black Mage also) and we are still easily the worst Job when it comes to any mechanics because of Greased Lightning (despite having twice as many tools to manage it as Black Mage has for Enochian and four times that of Dragoon for BoTD we're still the worst at it, funny that).

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Bringing SAM for the slashing is such a terrible idea the moment you realize that for them to apply slashing early is a massive personal damage loss defeating the purpose of being a selfish class.

This needs to be emphasised because far too many people mention slashing as good utility for Samurai. Yes, it's there if you absolutely need it, but asking a Samurai to set that up before they normally would completely fucks their opener. Either they stomach an unbuffed Higanbana or their major damaging abilities (Midare and Guren) fall outside buff windows. Basically, it defeats the entire point of bringing a "selfish, high personal DPS" job to then gimp what they're actually good for.

Honestly, slashing on Samurai feels more like the devs tossing it there because all the other melees have something.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm sorry but, BLM is the worst caster to use mana shift. SMN and RDM can do it to no detriment at almost any given time while BLM needs specific moments of their rotation to do so. The only advantage BLM has with Shift is giving MP right after they are raised.

What? I use it nearly on cooldown between my first and 2nd (otherwise overcapping) UI ticks, with no necessary adjustment to rotation. My mana remains thereby infinite while my rotation goes absolutely unchanged. It has no cost. RDM pays for MS over time. SMN's mana costs are almost irrelevant at this point, but it's still more costly than the literally null BLM cost.

You actually just proven my point saying you only use in a specific moment of your rotation and you just confirmed the cost is none to SMN as well. So I don't see where you're getting at. Plus the usage you describe results in a clipping which is a dps loss (unless used with thundercloud). So there you go, the cost is not null. How is more costy on SMN if you just said in the same sentence the costs are irrelevant? Also RDM will only starve for MP if you're shifting and raising in a short spawn of time. Both can weave Shift in instant spells for no gcd clip.

I receive at most .1 seconds of clipping during Mana Shift. When using it at sufficient mana to T3 immediately upon UI stage, the clipping is 0.


Also, what Speckled said. Monk, given the addition of Dark Knight, was never in as good a place, even, as Samurai is now.

[zuzu-bq]

You actually just proven my point saying you only use in a specific moment of your rotation and you just confirmed the cost is none to SMN as well. So I don't see where you're getting at. Plus the usage you describe results in a clipping which is a dps loss (unless used with thundercloud). So there you go, the cost is not null. How is more costy on SMN if you just said in the same sentence the costs are irrelevant? Also RDM will only starve for MP if you're shifting and raising in a short spawn of time. Both can weave Shift in instant spells for no gcd clip.

[Mahrze]

SAM and BLM just need a DPS buff and not by much. MNK on the other hand is a layered cake with flavors that you don't know if you want to cry or question who thought about the combinations.

[wereotter]

This needs to be emphasised because far too many people mention slashing as good utility for Samurai. Yes, it's there if you absolutely need it, but asking a Samurai to set that upbefore they normally would completely fucks their opener. Either they stomach an unbuffed Higanbana or their major damaging abilities (Midare and Guren) fall outside buff windows. Basically, it defeats the entire point of bringing a "selfish, high personal DPS" job to then gimp what they're actually good for.

Honestly, slashing on Samurai feels more like the devs tossing it there because all the other melees have something.

Considering the length of an entire encounter, and as someone who played Samurai as the sole source of the slashing resistance debuff for my raid, the difference for tanks (who would be the only jobs to benefit from it) is minimal. So you just put up your slashing debuff when you normally would and give your tanks that extra damage when it comes. The amount of different for tanks during the first 6 GCDs shouldn't be that massive anyway if they've set up their openers to align with trick attack anyway.

[Shiroe]

at least sam still does insane damage and has a slashing debuff and us the most "complete dps" of all and not punished as hard as others ( + sam is still the nr1 dps, ...just awkward that smn is creeping so close in some fights, with its utility)

mkn does damage close or equal (or ay times more, when packed with multiple melee comps) as a blm and has utility (even if not a utility monster as nin, which can get close to mnk dps wise)

... a full melee comp (all buffing each other: nin, drg, mkn and sam) is still very strong

blm is the "lost" dps at the moment,.. by far
(utility dps doing the same or more than a blm, while blm strugle the most to master/learn a fight with optimal dps)..., and blm dont profit near as much as other (physical) dps

blm need a (high) flat potency increase.. or a slight increase with a magic vun like Remedi suggested (... or hell, just buff the blm SS over all by 0.33 sec and lower the foul charge to 25 sec)